5 ms·

Behaviors that are baffling to outsiders are almost certainly adaptive within the context. Tribalism and clannism seem insane to us -- but family and local tie

Behaviors that are baffling to outsiders are almost certainly adaptive within the context. Tribalism and clannism seem insane to us -- but family and local ties are likely far more trustworthy than anything related to the government, law or "Afghan society". Obviously that sets up a pretty bad loop. I suspect that the most important economic flows in Afghanistan are foreign aid and narcotics. The proceeds of the former are largely distributed via corruption, which requires co-operation, which is facilitated by the trust within tribal networks. Those the latter would be distributed accordingly to tribal / clan structures. I suspect "the Taliban" are basically a front for an extremely well organized drug cartel. Notice that neither of these really depend on the productivity of the population. So the powers-that-be don't need stability to keep the goods flowing. If their economy depended on large industrial plant and skilled workers then blowing stuff up and killing people would be expensive and the society wouldn't tolerate it. But who sits in office or who harvests the poppy hasn't much to do with the goods flow. And so the gains on wrestling over the spoils are higher than those on increasing the society's overall production. That means tribal co-operation "pays" a lot better than "national" co-operation. And that co-operation is far more trustworthy. Unfortunately this traps them in a loop where 1) the weak and just are screwed and 2) they cannot possibly build a real economy. It's just a theory, but it does seem to explain a lot. (And it's a vast oversimplification, just a very simple political / economic model to postulate how tribalism could be adaptive. Even if that model is roughly accurate, the actual operation has to be vastly more complicated.) (As an aside: People in the United States just have no idea what a miracle this place is, how carefully its society and government was constructed, and how easily that construction could be undermined. We take a lot for granted here, but this place didn't just happen.)

johnyzee 14y ago
> I suspect "the Taliban" are basically a front for an extremely well organized drug cartel. The Taleban almost obliterated opium production in Afghanistan during their reign: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan#Rise_of_the_Taliban_.281994.E2.80.932001.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan...
joe_the_user 14y ago
Well, I would offer that the more productive industrial society as a whole has become, the more unproductive parasites of multitudinous sorts have arisen. A nation dependent on foreign aid and foreign drug-dealing could only exist on the economic periphery of a more prosperous nations, right? The evolution of Mexico is instructive here. We're lucky that in the US, the parasites at least don't have as much of an incentive to engage in violence.
javajosh 14y ago
>Behaviors that are baffling to outsiders are almost certainly adaptive within the context. Why do you believe this? It reminds me of people who think that just because something exists, it must be useful. Some things really don't serve any purpose, like nipples on men, or belly buttons, or fingerprints. I don't think its tribalism itself that's the problem. Heck, if the tribe is big enough we call it a nation. It seems to me that it's possible to have a "good tribe" - one that defends it's borders well, and imposes something like the rule of law within it's borders. Perhaps most importantly, inculcates a culture of non-destruction - where initiating violence is frowned upon by everyone. This tribe, I believe, could thrive and grow, and prosper. As for the economics of the thing, I think that such a tribe could do very well. Heck, if you're right about capital flows (and you probably are) such a tribe could get (covert) American aid, etc. I imagine we'd even look the other way if they wanted to grow poppies. But still, this would be a small island, and I'm not sure if there are enough people to really man the battlements and make it work.
- chernevik 14y ago
  Because it has extraordinary explanatory power in a very wide diversity of settings. It is certainly consistent with the sciences, and anthropological science in particular. BTW -- You (on average) ate through your belly button for months 2 through 9 of your existence. Just because you aren't using it _now_ doesn't mean it never served any purpose.
- daeken 14y ago
  Fingerprints provide roughness and grip to your fingers. Without them, you'd have a difficult time doing simple things like holding a beer bottle with your finger tips.
  - sp332 14y ago
    They also improve sensitivity to vibration, which in turn increases the resolution of textures you can feel by brushing your fingers over them.
- cynicalkane 14y ago
mercurial 14y ago
> I suspect that the most important economic flows in Afghanistan are foreign aid and narcotics. The proceeds of the former are largely distributed via corruption, which requires co-operation, which is facilitated by the trust within tribal networks. Those the latter would be distributed accordingly to tribal / clan structures. I suspect "the Taliban" are basically a front for an extremely well organized drug cartel. While the Talibans certainly rely on drug trafficking money to stay afloat nowadays, they had essentially wiped it out while they were ruling the country. You make some good points. I'd like to mention a couple of additional things: - Lack of institutions and the rule of law. As long as the administration, the police, the courts are easily bribed, why would you work along official channels? Your interest is better served by leveraging your clan's resources and bribing your way forward. - Lack of a feeling of national unity. In particular, the 1996-2001 civil war in Afghanistan between the Northern Alliance and the predominantly Pashtoun, Pakistan-backed Talibans cannot have had a positive effect.

johnyzee 14y ago

> I suspect "the Taliban" are basically a front for an extremely well organized drug cartel. The Taleban almost obliterated opium production in Afghanistan during their reign: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan#Rise_of_the_Taliban_.281994.E2.80.932001.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan...

joe_the_user 14y ago

Well, I would offer that the more productive industrial society as a whole has become, the more unproductive parasites of multitudinous sorts have arisen. A nation dependent on foreign aid and foreign drug-dealing could only exist on the economic periphery of a more prosperous nations, right? The evolution of Mexico is instructive here. We're lucky that in the US, the parasites at least don't have as much of an incentive to engage in violence.

javajosh 14y ago

>Behaviors that are baffling to outsiders are almost certainly adaptive within the context. Why do you believe this? It reminds me of people who think that just because something exists, it must be useful. Some things really don't serve any purpose, like nipples on men, or belly buttons, or fingerprints. I don't think its tribalism itself that's the problem. Heck, if the tribe is big enough we call it a nation. It seems to me that it's possible to have a "good tribe" - one that defends it's borders well, and imposes something like the rule of law within it's borders. Perhaps most importantly, inculcates a culture of non-destruction - where initiating violence is frowned upon by everyone. This tribe, I believe, could thrive and grow, and prosper. As for the economics of the thing, I think that such a tribe could do very well. Heck, if you're right about capital flows (and you probably are) such a tribe could get (covert) American aid, etc. I imagine we'd even look the other way if they wanted to grow poppies. But still, this would be a small island, and I'm not sure if there are enough people to really man the battlements and make it work.

chernevik 14y ago
Because it has extraordinary explanatory power in a very wide diversity of settings. It is certainly consistent with the sciences, and anthropological science in particular. BTW -- You (on average) ate through your belly button for months 2 through 9 of your existence. Just because you aren't using it _now_ doesn't mean it never served any purpose.
daeken 14y ago
Fingerprints provide roughness and grip to your fingers. Without them, you'd have a difficult time doing simple things like holding a beer bottle with your finger tips.
- sp332 14y ago
  They also improve sensitivity to vibration, which in turn increases the resolution of textures you can feel by brushing your fingers over them.
cynicalkane 14y ago

mercurial 14y ago

> I suspect that the most important economic flows in Afghanistan are foreign aid and narcotics. The proceeds of the former are largely distributed via corruption, which requires co-operation, which is facilitated by the trust within tribal networks. Those the latter would be distributed accordingly to tribal / clan structures. I suspect "the Taliban" are basically a front for an extremely well organized drug cartel. While the Talibans certainly rely on drug trafficking money to stay afloat nowadays, they had essentially wiped it out while they were ruling the country. You make some good points. I'd like to mention a couple of additional things: - Lack of institutions and the rule of law. As long as the administration, the police, the courts are easily bribed, why would you work along official channels? Your interest is better served by leveraging your clan's resources and bribing your way forward. - Lack of a feeling of national unity. In particular, the 1996-2001 civil war in Afghanistan between the Northern Alliance and the predominantly Pashtoun, Pakistan-backed Talibans cannot have had a positive effect.