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Samsung Health app threatens data deletion if users opt out AI training
- datadrivenangel 3mo agoshouldn't this get them turbo obliterated in europe?
- seydor 3mo agono, in fact gdpr requires that they get consent before they process the data. They are not preventing people from accessing the data, only indefinite storage as i understand. They may claim that storage is needed for the processing (which might make sense, they want to train on the whole time series).
- varispeed 3mo agoIndeed, gdpr was created for corporations to have legal basis to process and sell data. Before gdpr it was a gray area. It was never about privacy.
- wolvoleo 3mo agoYes but that consent must be given freely. There can't be undue pressure. Unfortunately this part is not well defined but it looks like the AI training part is not required to deliver the service to the specific user so I do think that if challenged it will be ruled afoul of GDPR.
- abroszka33 3mo agoI think Facebook lost a similar lawsuit recently where you had to accept that they can use your data or pay to access the site. And it was found illegal in the EU. The problem is that it takes years and users don't wait for years. There should be a way to harm these companies more on the EU level.
- antalis 3mo agoThey can get fined for up to 2 or 4% of their global annual revenue depending on the violation severity.
- kivle 3mo agoI'm in Norway, and I never consented in that dialog box, so my Facebook account is in limbo. The dialog still appears when I go to Facebook, years later, so I don't think anything has changed?
- wolvoleo 3mo agoPerhaps Norway didn't get included? I know GDPR does apply to Norway, but perhaps the legal basis was in another law that didn't transfer to the EEA area? I don't use Facebook myself anymore so I can't check.
- ptx 3mo agoRecital 11 of the GDPR says that consent must be "freely given", and recital 43 says (in part): "Consent is presumed not to be freely given if it does not allow separate consent to be given to different personal data processing operations despite it being appropriate in the individual case, or if the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is dependent on the consent despite such consent not being necessary for such performance."
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- subscribed 3mo agoThis is coercion and change of contract post-factum. I don't think they have any chance of surviving regulator looking at it. Of course regulators never do it unprompted.
- swiftcoder 3mo agoAre we sure this isn’t the text for the “consent to process health data” toggle that is on the same screen? I don’t have a Samsung phone handy to check
- josefritzishere 3mo agoYou shouldn't trust them with your health data anyway.
- gdulli 3mo agoSomething I appreciate about Samsung phones is that having a Samsung account is completely optional. I've never had one. If I accidentally click on one of the dumb AI features I'm not even allowed to use it without an account.
- kelseyfrog 3mo agoAm I reading this wrong? It sounds like, short of self-hosting your health data, this is the best of both worlds. Avoiding zombie data retention and avoiding AI? Where do I sign?
- ribosometronome 3mo agoBlocking backups and consequently reducing data portability doesn't really sound like the best of both worlds.
- rdtsc 3mo ago> The company plans to grab four categories: your sleep, your medications, your medical records, and your cycle tracking details So you buy a device but you can't effectively use half of its features because you'd also have to agree to send them your medical records? Ok then if I refuse, will they refund 50% of the device price since now it's not usable any more?
- sam1r 3mo ago[flagged]
- customguy 3mo ago"snatch with their spider leg like fingers that are dripping with digestive fluid"
- JoshTriplett 3mo ago> I really feel like "grab" is quite condescending By all means, let's use a more appropriate term, like "abuse" or "misappropriate". It's not sufficiently condescending for a company that's trying to train AI on people's private health data.
- mcmcmc 3mo agoDo you think those services are “free”? If you want cloud storage and syncing, it comes at a price. If you’re not paying with money, you’re paying with your privacy and freedom.
- aftbit 3mo agoI sorta assumed they were making money from selling you the device.
- JoshTriplett 3mo agoWe are not required to permit every possible business model to exist. Companies are desperately trying to get their hands on every piece of data they can get to train AI, hence the abominable use of "opt out", which is already horrible even without the added bait-and-switch coercion of "or we'll make the device you already purchased worse". "pay or consent" stunts have already been ruled illegal under the GDPR. This goes even further than that, where you don't even have the option to pay.
- Cider9986 3mo agoApple has default E2EE on health data, which I respect. But they need to take iMessage backup out of Advanced Data Protection and make it default E2EE. Messages are just as sensitive, iMessage is effectively not E2EE if most users are using it with server-side encrypted backups to iCloud. Apple of all companies should be able to make a reliable E2EE that wont cause data loss.
- sam1r 3mo agoI was under the assumption that because of GDPR (which is in effect..).. or current "end-user metadata storage" best practices.. if you (a website/or app) didn't immediately disclose to the user what data is being used,stored, and why it is -- then you shouldn't store it at all. If you agree that the world needs better examples today, then Samsung has definitely showed one.
- Citizen_Lame 3mo agoGDPR is dead in the water.
- varispeed 3mo agoSamsung should be fined out of existence for this.
- cute_boi 3mo agoWell there is no incentive for government to keep citizen data private.
- gmuslera 3mo agoIn some way they are telling that they respect your privacy. Or they have your data (and then do something with it, now or later), or no one will. They could provide some Google-style takeout to get your data before deletion, but that may not have any meaning or practical use without their devices and software.
- sam1r 3mo agoCompletely agree. Or maybe, just like most products in tech -- they are currently en route to "take out" style data deletion... and it's being released shortly.
- vitally3643 3mo agoThey don't respect your privacy, they value your private data. Two very different things.
- subscribed 3mo agoWell, as per GDPR they must provide data export ("takeout").
- zelphirkalt 3mo agoThat reminds me of a story by a former coworker of mine, who had a xing account and repeatedly asked them to not send me him ads and spam e-mails. They ultimately closed his account. Some companies are so dead set on doing this shit, that they don't even have mechanism in place that would enable them to act upon you opting out. It is a sign of dysfunctional companies. You can also observe this, when you send companies a GDPR request for deletion and they do eeeeverything to not have to go into their shitty system and delete the data, because that would require them to do manual work.
- ChrisArchitect 3mo agounshortened link: https://www.neowin.net/news/samsung-will-delete-your-health-data-if-you-dont-let-them-use-it-to-train-ai/ https://www.neowin.net/news/samsung-will-delete-your-health-...
- aleph_minus_one 3mo agoWhere is the catch? You rather get two good things if you don't agree: - Samsung deletes your sensitive health data - Samsung does not use this data to train some AI :-)
- mococa 3mo agoI was thinking exactly the same…
- orbital-decay 3mo agoThe catch could be they actually do neither of that and train on it silently.
- vcryan 3mo agoYes, please - delete my health data. I want my health data - I didn't want Samsung or anyone else to have it unless I provide it. And even then, you can't keep it - you can look at it. It's mine.
- garbagewoman 3mo agoYou’re hoping that they will do what they say
- gardnr 3mo agoThis is like Google Ultra for personal accounts. I signed up to see what it was like and then assumed I would be able to disable training on my data as a paid customer. The only way to disable training on paid personal accounts is to disable history (no chat logs) which makes the service much less useful for me. For Google Workspace accounts that use the Ultra plan you can disable training while retaining history. I didn't bother signing up again. It is user-hostile.
- cute_boi 3mo agoYes, you will have to pay lot of money and you will have to surrender data too.
- ThePowerOfFuet 3mo agoWhat's with the tracked sharing link? Tracking-free link: https://www.neowin.net/news/samsung-will-delete-your-health-data-if-you-dont-let-them-use-it-to-train-ai/ https://www.neowin.net/news/samsung-will-delete-your-health-...
- dotcoma 3mo agoThey are dumber than a second coat of paint.
- thejazzman 3mo agois this a common expression? i'm genuinely confused/curious. i am confurious.
- dotcoma 3mo agoYou're welcome. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dumber+than+a+second+coat+of+paint&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dumber+than+a+second+coat+of+paint...
- doginasuit 3mo agoThat sounds a little more like confused and furious. Anyone curious about why you are furious might start a chain reaction of confuriosity.
- SoftTalker 3mo agoIt's a George Carlin quote.
- tatersolid 3mo agoThe Indiana variant of this phrase was “tighter than two coats of paint” which meant a person who was tight with money (cheap).
- exabrial 3mo agoI'd doubt this is legal under HIPAA law in the US, but good luck
- fwip 3mo agoIt certainly is. HIPAA binds healthcare providers and those entities who get data from them. Samsung is not bound by either of these, unless it is sourcing the health information from, like, your doctor, and not from your watch.
- SoftTalker 3mo agoBut it should be. They are actively collecting it with software and devices designed to collect it and giving you medical advice based on it. They should be considered a provider.
- Hugsbox 3mo agoI'm not an expert on the matter, but to my knowledge Samsung aren't health practitioners and aren't beholden to HIPAA laws for data that was (presumably) voluntarily provided to them. Is this scummy? Abso-fucking-lutely. But as far as I'm aware they have a lot of freedom when it comes with data collected with permission from users. Obviously this is something that should be addressed/regulated.
- kklisura 3mo agoOne day we will perhaps be able to forgive these companies for mismanaging our data, but we will never forgive them for making us regulate them.
- sunaookami 3mo agoBought a Galaxy Watch 7 two years ago, the hardware is good and One UI on the watch itself is also quite good (and the last major update improved it) but Samsung Health is such a shit app. Constant ads for some "courses" or videos and things I don't care about. Downloading my personal data doesn't even work, it sends me right to the browser with an error message that I'm "not logged in correctly" and it wants access to all my pictures & videos (seems like a wrong permission prompt there but when I decline it it also fails with "we need access to all your photos & videos". Why? Just send me a download link via email or use SAF and let me pick a download location). Thanks to this article I also noticed the UI was redesigned. At least I could keep my layout but it didn't work like it should, it added some useless cards. It also asked about new "optional" data sharing which I of course declined. There is now a notice that my data wasn't backupped to my Samsung account the last 3 days (???) and the data synchronization doesn't work, the buttons do nothing, it just says "disabled" even though everything is enabled... typical Samsung shitware. Haven't noticed anything with AI training (there is no option) but I'm also in the EU.
- breakingrules3 3mo ago[dead]
- breakingrules3 3mo ago[dead]
- stackghost 3mo ago>You will not be able to sync health data with your Samsung account and your health data will be deleted unless retained pursuant to applicable law. If retention is required, we will erase it as soon as the required retention period ends. Don't threaten me with a good time. I'm so tired of tech companies shoving AI into everything, everywhere.
- theturtle 3mo ago[dead]
- tamimio 3mo agoI actually don’t know why people are always surprised when this happens, it’s not your data anymore no matter whatever regulations are there. The other day I reactivated my apple music to get a specific shazam song (I don’t use it anymore or any SaaS for that matter, have my navidrome server for years), but little to my surprise, all my playlists and songs are gone, deleted, everything as if it’s a new account! I thought it’s a glitch and googled it, turned out there are a LOT of people who had all their years of music wiped out for not having the subscription for two weeks only.. so yeah, always own your stuff, especially if you pay for it.
- qmarchi 3mo agoI use a Watch 6 Classic, just went in to find this toggle. Doesn't seem to exist in the Japanese market at least.
- makeramen 3mo agoGemini does the same (though not with health data). The only way to opt out of training on your data is to disable all Gemini chat history.
- subscribed 3mo agoIf I'm not mistaken you can still use all of Gemini features, without saving history, without training?
- Madmallard 3mo agoHow does this not violate HIPAA?
- codingdave 3mo agoBecause HIPAA only applies to specific people and organizations who have a formal role in your health care. It is not a universal law applicable to everyone, and Samsung is not your healthcare provider, insurer, nor part of any related entity.
- Madmallard 3mo agoIt probably should apply. The spirit of HIPAA is the protection of health information.
- arjie 3mo agoHow is HIPAA relevant here? Samsung isn't a covered entity. HIPAA is not just "I have some health data" freebie. Might as well ask why it doesn't violate Sarbanes-Oxley or Jim Crow.
- skeledrew 3mo agoThis actually seems kinda OK. Consent to train is payment for hosting that data. Find another health app/service with more preferable terms if you don't like it. My only beef is if they do an immediate delete without providing a reasonable method for users to export that data first, which is how it reads.
- anonymars 3mo ago> Find another health app/service with more preferable terms if you don't like it It never ceases to amaze me how many people defend the Darth Vader style of buying a product: "I am altering the deal; pray I don't alter it any further" I assume it must be rooted in the just-world fallacy: "Clearly anyone affected must not have been careful enough or did something else wrong. Since I'm careful with my purchases, negative consequences couldn't happen to me." Related reading: https://blog.codinghorror.com/they-have-to-be-monsters/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/they-have-to-be-monsters/
- akramachamarei 3mo agoYour analysis reiterates the popular but fallacious motifs. The real issue is that people don't read the contracts they sign, so when they buy something they imagine that it will do all they expect and probably more from the time they buy until it falls apart. Then they're surprised when Samsung does something permitted by the contract. Then they get annoyed because they feel entitled to something that no one agreed to. This seems to be a major stumbling block in the popular understanding of business: contracts, agreement, consent matters. What you might be implying with the reference to the JWF is that there should be a ceiling for retail contract complexity. I'm just guessing, it's not really clear.
- anonymars 3mo agoA contract that says "we can change the terms of this contract at will" (as pretty much all "terms of service" do) is little more than an adhesive charade Imagine thinking people who bought a device when it didn't say "in order to use the features we advertise, you must let us train our AI on your data" are the ones who are being unreasonable
- gyoridavid 3mo agoI mean, Gemini does the same: if you want the history of your chats, there's no way to opt out from the AI training..
- aizk 3mo agoI use Sparky Fitness for all my fitness / health tracking. So, so happy I have everything stored locally, where I can do whatever I want with the data, and I know it's mine and it's private. Very easily to interface with your favorite llm of choice. https://github.com/CodeWithCJ/SparkyFitness/ https://github.com/CodeWithCJ/SparkyFitness/
- SoftTalker 3mo agoUmmm once you give your data to an LLM it's no longer private.
- SirMadam 3mo agoGave the repo a once over: Self hosting [of the whole application in general] is a first-class citizen of the project, and the AI features are both: a. completely optional/disable-able and b. Self hosted llm friendly, with specific instructions given on how to use it with things like Ollama
- germandiago 3mo agoSamsung has been banned from my choices. There are many brands to choose from.
- gentlerain 3mo ago[dead]
- luciana1u 3mo ago[flagged]
- chrismartin 3mo agoThe endearing angle: refusing to keep cookies in the house, because you admit an inability to merely store them.
- itsautocomplete 3mo ago[flagged]
- eqvinox 3mo agoWow. Good thing I sent back my Samsung health watch after discovering some of the fancy features were locked to having a Samsung smartphone to go with it. Shameful business conduct.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- ornornor 3mo agoSamsung is such an evil, dishonest, cunning company. I can’t understand how their devices sell so well despite that!
- zombot 3mo agoWhat a friendly move. Try to get any of those surveillance giants to delete any data they have about you. And Samsung does it voluntarily? I would take that opportunity instantly if I were a user.
- kmfrk 3mo agoI've always loved Samsung Magician (for drives), whose Windows installer always asks something to the effect of "Do you happen to live in Brazil or the EU by any chance?"
- nicsoftware 3mo ago[flagged]
- Yatharth__verma 3mo agoAt least your account still works.
- enbarca 3mo ago[dead]