8 ms·

I read the article and didn't see anywhere if they collaborated with city planners, or just ran this on their own. I get the techno-optimism of making traffic '

I read the article and didn't see anywhere if they collaborated with city planners, or just ran this on their own. I get the techno-optimism of making traffic 'better' and also it may be concerning if trucks are being routed through neighborhoods where planners didn't build for it.

whoamii 3mo ago
Found the European :)
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
ezfe 3mo ago
I think that's already very much a problem, and given that they constrained it to routes that didn't have a significantly different drive time the risk seems low.
_vertigo 3mo ago
Do you think Google should get government sign-off on every change to its routing algorithm?
- HNisCIS 3mo ago
  Medical/psychological experiments involving human subjects are mandated by federal law to run through a review board. Did that happen here? This isn't a medical experiment, but I don't think its nuts to feel like maybe there should have been some oversight.
  - kaonwarb 3mo ago
    I fear you may overestimate the median benefit of government oversight.
    - HNisCIS 3mo ago
      I fear you underestimate the malice of the average tech company
  - charcircuit 3mo ago
    This is only true for experiments funded by the government. In this case the experiment was funded solely by Google.
    - loeg 3mo ago
      IRB approval is required for human subject research funded by private parties, too; not just government. But only really in the medical field.
      - charcircuit 3mo ago
        >But only really in the medical field. Looking it up, the exception where it is required is specifically for clinical investigations regulated by the Food and Drug Administration.
  - malkia 3mo ago
    Does this apply to Netflix, Amazon, Disneys, and many other streaming providers's "What to watch next? Recommended..." of sorts (or music/podcast streaming services)...
    - andsoitis 3mo ago
      Routing traffic affects not only the drivers using Google Maps, but also everyone around them IN REALTIME. Netflix personalized recommendations affect only the individual, not those around them who are not using Netflix.
      - malkia 3mo ago
        Oh yes, good point! Stand corrected!
- rendaw 3mo ago
  You're acting in bad faith attaching "every change" to what the parent said. But this isn't that crazy? Most businesses require government approval for changes that have community effects... that's the entire point of government. Stuff like construction permits and regulation around structures, water usage, pollution, building architecture. Mining companies are required to assess environmental impacts. Companies making RF devices need to get confirmation on how the devices affect people and other devices. And that's not even considering market share/monopoly status, which also regularly invites more scrutiny.
  - thereisnospork 3mo ago
    When the government proscribes discretionary permitting to those items you mentioned corruption and scarcity follow. It is exorbitantly expensive and difficult to build a house, a powerplant, or a mine in this country. For which we all currently pay for in cost of living.
  - maxerickson 3mo ago
    Does the tempo matter? Like compare changing live routing to publishing a paper map showing alternate routes. In either case it seems to me that the vehicle operator should be most responsible for the impact of the route that they use.
- bravoetch 2mo ago
  That's not a bad idea, since we pay for the roads, not Google.
xnx 3mo ago
City planners and zoning have been a disaster for US cities.
- HNisCIS 3mo ago
  That's not what the parent is talking about. You're using the strawman of what appears to be occupancy zoning or something similar to argue that a techno fascists should have free reign to manipulate the mass movements of people within a city for their own purposes.
  - WarmWash 3mo ago
    Generally you need to be pretty competent to get to the level of where these Google maps guys are. To get to the competence level of a local traffic planner, you need to have stuck it out through a Civ E degree and maybe went through the motions at a firm for for 15 years before getting laid off and then wanting a "cruise control" job with the power you never would have achieved in private industry for the rest of your career. You end up dealing with guys where you live or die based on the opinion of someone who hasn't bothered to learn anything new since 1991, and have no interest in breaking their "cruise control".
    - HNisCIS 3mo ago
      Still a strawmam somehow?
vachina 3mo ago
This is also my experience. It would suggest routes that make no sense (to a local) in an attempt to “divert” away from traffic, which ends up costing more time and petrol anyway.
bitter_michael 3mo ago
I had a similar question and am generally curious if google has an internal IRB or equivalent for these studies. Given their outsized influence, there is a reasonable chance of uncoordinated interaction between their efforts and other ongoing studies. For a trivial example, consider interaction between google maps rerouting experiment near an event and localized uber surge pricing.

whoamii 3mo ago

Found the European :)

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

ezfe 3mo ago

I think that's already very much a problem, and given that they constrained it to routes that didn't have a significantly different drive time the risk seems low.

_vertigo 3mo ago

Do you think Google should get government sign-off on every change to its routing algorithm?

HNisCIS 3mo ago
Medical/psychological experiments involving human subjects are mandated by federal law to run through a review board. Did that happen here? This isn't a medical experiment, but I don't think its nuts to feel like maybe there should have been some oversight.
- kaonwarb 3mo ago
  I fear you may overestimate the median benefit of government oversight.
  - HNisCIS 3mo ago
    I fear you underestimate the malice of the average tech company
- charcircuit 3mo ago
  This is only true for experiments funded by the government. In this case the experiment was funded solely by Google.
  - loeg 3mo ago
    IRB approval is required for human subject research funded by private parties, too; not just government. But only really in the medical field.
    - charcircuit 3mo ago
      >But only really in the medical field. Looking it up, the exception where it is required is specifically for clinical investigations regulated by the Food and Drug Administration.
- malkia 3mo ago
  Does this apply to Netflix, Amazon, Disneys, and many other streaming providers's "What to watch next? Recommended..." of sorts (or music/podcast streaming services)...
  - andsoitis 3mo ago
    Routing traffic affects not only the drivers using Google Maps, but also everyone around them IN REALTIME. Netflix personalized recommendations affect only the individual, not those around them who are not using Netflix.
    - malkia 3mo ago
      Oh yes, good point! Stand corrected!
rendaw 3mo ago
You're acting in bad faith attaching "every change" to what the parent said. But this isn't that crazy? Most businesses require government approval for changes that have community effects... that's the entire point of government. Stuff like construction permits and regulation around structures, water usage, pollution, building architecture. Mining companies are required to assess environmental impacts. Companies making RF devices need to get confirmation on how the devices affect people and other devices. And that's not even considering market share/monopoly status, which also regularly invites more scrutiny.
- thereisnospork 3mo ago
  When the government proscribes discretionary permitting to those items you mentioned corruption and scarcity follow. It is exorbitantly expensive and difficult to build a house, a powerplant, or a mine in this country. For which we all currently pay for in cost of living.
- maxerickson 3mo ago
  Does the tempo matter? Like compare changing live routing to publishing a paper map showing alternate routes. In either case it seems to me that the vehicle operator should be most responsible for the impact of the route that they use.
bravoetch 2mo ago
That's not a bad idea, since we pay for the roads, not Google.

xnx 3mo ago

City planners and zoning have been a disaster for US cities.

HNisCIS 3mo ago
That's not what the parent is talking about. You're using the strawman of what appears to be occupancy zoning or something similar to argue that a techno fascists should have free reign to manipulate the mass movements of people within a city for their own purposes.
- WarmWash 3mo ago
  Generally you need to be pretty competent to get to the level of where these Google maps guys are. To get to the competence level of a local traffic planner, you need to have stuck it out through a Civ E degree and maybe went through the motions at a firm for for 15 years before getting laid off and then wanting a "cruise control" job with the power you never would have achieved in private industry for the rest of your career. You end up dealing with guys where you live or die based on the opinion of someone who hasn't bothered to learn anything new since 1991, and have no interest in breaking their "cruise control".
  - HNisCIS 3mo ago
    Still a strawmam somehow?

vachina 3mo ago

This is also my experience. It would suggest routes that make no sense (to a local) in an attempt to “divert” away from traffic, which ends up costing more time and petrol anyway.

bitter_michael 3mo ago

I had a similar question and am generally curious if google has an internal IRB or equivalent for these studies. Given their outsized influence, there is a reasonable chance of uncoordinated interaction between their efforts and other ongoing studies. For a trivial example, consider interaction between google maps rerouting experiment near an event and localized uber surge pricing.