5 ms·

I've been an Emacs user for over 25 years. But last year I switched employers and they won't let me use it even for tasks where it would absolutely shine. Their

by kleiba2 3mo ago

I've been an Emacs user for over 25 years. But last year I switched employers and they won't let me use it even for tasks where it would absolutely shine. Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point. Unfortunately, I failed to convince my employer to make everybody else switch to Emacs. So, now I'm using lots of one-purpose tools, one for each separate task, a good deal less efficiently than I could use Emacs, and I'm still learning all the new UIs and keyboard mappings.

jerf 3mo ago
... how would they tell?
- kleiba2 3mo ago
  By looking at my screen? But also, why would you disobey a direct instruction from you super?
  - skilning 3mo ago
    > why would you disobey a direct instruction from you super? Because the instruction was stupid, based on marketing instead of utility, or otherwise given without any thought to how it impacts the actual day-to-day work of their subordinates. Why WOULDN'T you disobey a stupid instruction? What's the difference between "stop using this tool you're productive in and switch to this one that you're demonstrably LESS productive in for no reason other than I heard it was a good idea", and "Go strap some rocks onto your ankles and swim the English channel. I heard that was a good idea."?
    - cindyllm 3mo ago
      [dead]
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - BeetleB 3mo ago
    > But also, why would you disobey a direct instruction from you super? Because they disobey their superior (and if they don't, recurse). But yeah, if I were new to the job, I would wait until I'm fairly competent before playing those games.
  - wglb 3mo ago
    In my youth, I openly railed against this type of thinking. I was near quitting one gig when the VP said that all work done on our Dec 10 had to be done in batch mode. Fortunately, this dictum was shortly reveresed. To further answer why I would disobey a direct instruction is that I presume those hiring me expect me to produce solutions to problems--have a problem solving attitude. A direct instruction of that sort is contrary to that.
  - phyzix5761 3mo ago
    Depends what country you're in. In the US we have a culture in engineering of doing what we believe is right regardless of what the manager wants. We can afford to do that because of how highly specialized our work is and how few engineers there are (this is probably changing with AI). But in other countries managers are looking for any excuse to replace you with someone who will just nod their head and do whatever they ask.
wtetzner 3mo ago
> Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point. Why is that a valid point?
- tom_alexander 3mo ago
  In my case, I am a very senior member of my team so 25-50% of each day is spent helping and/or teaching teammates. In situations like that, it is useful to be deeply familiar with the tools that your teammates are using so you can tell them exactly what to do. For example, if I'm teaching a new hire to set up their vscode it is not very helpful to tell them "now you need to activate the python venv". It is much more helpful to be able to tell them "Now we're going to activate the python venv. To do that, open your command palette and search for 'select python interpreter'". In my personal life, I still exclusively use emacs (which I have scripted to auto-detect venvs) but I put up with using vscode at work to be a greater utility to my team.
  - shakow 3mo ago
    At some point, shouldn't installing a venv be a pre-requisite to actually be hired as a dev?
    - kleiba2 3mo ago
      That was just an example. The point of the parent is that in an ideal situation, where everything works without flaw, theoretically it makes no difference which tools everyone uses. In real life, you having a homogeneous setup across a team makes the sysadmin's job a lot easier.
      - shakow 3mo ago
        But sysadmins should be there to deploy stuff and make sure the infra does its job, not get bogged down handholding some dev that can't even compile a project.
        3mo ago
masfoobar 3mo ago
At a company I work for, they are doing various changes (and control) over the software we install as we transition to a larger company. I believe they are using Microsoft Intune so they can allow/deny what can be installed. I have not updated my laptop (or got a new one) because I am concerned they will not allow me to install or continue to use Emacs. Honestly, I can vision how that conversation goes:- [manager]: Hi, so what is Emacs [me]: Emacs is a text editor I use daily and makes me efficient in my work [manager]: OK. I would like us to start using Visual Studio Code with the new projects coming up [me]: Why? The consumption models we are using has no VSCode support, anyway. [manager]: It would just be good if we are all using the same tools [me]: It should not matter what we use as long as we work with git and deployment. If someone else is great with a different text editor why force them to use something else? [manager]: (Looks up emacs) [manager]: I think its best we stopped using it because it is not supported by Microsoft and we need to be careful with the dangers of open source. [me]: OK. Should we contact other IT departments to replace any open source tools they use? [manager]: Its just emacs is not verified software for the business. I think you are complicating things a little (tries to belittle me) [me]: Emacs is my daily driver! If it goes, I will hand in my resignation! * Manager is not there to understand or reason.. he is just following orders from other IT departments. *
- jhghbj 3mo ago
  [dead]
- ks6g10 3mo ago
  I scheduled my intune upgrade when I needed a week off for doing house moving stuff. I was told Emacs would work, didn't. Took them about a week before I could use it again.
- kleiba2 3mo ago
  I worked briefly in public administration at one point in my career. I asked the admins the same thing, could I get Emacs installed on my machine. I got a bit concerned when the admin staff asked back: "What is Emacs?"
  - 3mo ago
skilning 3mo ago
> Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point No. That's only a valid point if something about the tool must be shared between users, rather than just the output. Emacs is a text editor. It reads, modifies, and produces text. The correct tool for each team member to use is the one they're most productive with, full stop. Jesus fucking Shiva while Odin watches, but I hate corporate management "thinking". It's just become more and more brain-dead over the decades.
clircle 3mo ago
Emacs users (myself included) would feel less like cramming every aspect of our work into Emacs if more tools embodied the freedom and hackability that comes with using Emacs. It's not that Emacs is better, it's that other tools are more restrictive and not self-documenting.
- NoGravitas 3mo ago
  It's also helpful that you get a certain degree of UI consistency from things like completing-read being used everywhere. And even when some package departs from convention, everything is still a buffer, so anything in it is easy to reuse.
- kleiba2 3mo ago
  That, and also the fact that everything is well-integrated and interoperable, allowing a more seamless interaction between the different tools.
rglullis 3mo ago
> Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point. Why?! It is a text editor for crying out loud. If you are more productive using the tools you want, don't cost anything to the company and doesn't force your colleagues to adopt your workflow, you could be working with notepad for all I care.
Arubis 3mo ago
Having everyone on a team have different personalities is managerially inefficient. You have to deal with each team member in a different way instead of being able to have a unified emotional approach. So we required frontal lobotomies for everyone on the team.
- koiueo 3mo ago
  Unironically. I once was told by my manager, that I got to fix being an introvert. I stayed for 8 months in that company (would be less, but such is the expat's life on a visa), and leaving was the best professional decision of my life.
isityettime 3mo ago
What about the job is so good as to make you tolerate this?
- TylerE 3mo ago
  Taken a look at the job market lately? Unless you’re like the top 1% (which most people aren’t), it’s extremely bleak.
  - kleiba2 3mo ago
    Plus, I'm not very hirable to begin with, having wasted most of my professional life in academia.
BeetleB 3mo ago
> Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point. Not really. If they mandated all team members use telnet instead of ssh, would you say their position is valid? Anyway, the important thing to learn is "You're not supposed to ask if you can use Emacs. Just use it!" Incidentally, do they have a mandated general text editor? And if they do, will you get in trouble for firing up Notepad? Do they have a mandated TODO tool (for your own tracking of work, not something like Jira meant for the whole group)? I've yet encountered a place that did. Basically, find some category that Emacs does that they've not mandated, and then install Emacs and tell people you're using it for that category :-)
iLemming 3mo ago
What a nightmare. The day anyone tells me not to use a specific editor regardless of what it is, I'd be opening their suggested one to type my resignation letter. And not because I love Emacs, Vim or whatever. I mean I'd understand enforcing using specific tools while pair-programming, mentoring, etc., but not allowing a software engineer to use whatever editor they are most comfortable using at all is not even dystopian, it's simply imbecilic. How are they supposed to not just "perform" but to get any shit done at all? It's equivalent of hiring a secretary and asking them to type everything in Hebrew (a language they have zero awareness of), using Dvorak (a layout they've never tried) and then complaining that their typing speed is undesirable. How the fuck do these people even get to managerial positions? How in the world are these kinds of companies and company cultures not bankrupted themselves out of existence?
phyzix5761 3mo ago
You could set the building on fire.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]

by kleiba2 3mo ago

jerf 3mo ago

... how would they tell?

kleiba2 3mo ago
By looking at my screen? But also, why would you disobey a direct instruction from you super?
- skilning 3mo ago
  > why would you disobey a direct instruction from you super? Because the instruction was stupid, based on marketing instead of utility, or otherwise given without any thought to how it impacts the actual day-to-day work of their subordinates. Why WOULDN'T you disobey a stupid instruction? What's the difference between "stop using this tool you're productive in and switch to this one that you're demonstrably LESS productive in for no reason other than I heard it was a good idea", and "Go strap some rocks onto your ankles and swim the English channel. I heard that was a good idea."?
  - cindyllm 3mo ago
    [dead]
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- BeetleB 3mo ago
  > But also, why would you disobey a direct instruction from you super? Because they disobey their superior (and if they don't, recurse). But yeah, if I were new to the job, I would wait until I'm fairly competent before playing those games.
- wglb 3mo ago
  In my youth, I openly railed against this type of thinking. I was near quitting one gig when the VP said that all work done on our Dec 10 had to be done in batch mode. Fortunately, this dictum was shortly reveresed. To further answer why I would disobey a direct instruction is that I presume those hiring me expect me to produce solutions to problems--have a problem solving attitude. A direct instruction of that sort is contrary to that.
- phyzix5761 3mo ago
  Depends what country you're in. In the US we have a culture in engineering of doing what we believe is right regardless of what the manager wants. We can afford to do that because of how highly specialized our work is and how few engineers there are (this is probably changing with AI). But in other countries managers are looking for any excuse to replace you with someone who will just nod their head and do whatever they ask.

wtetzner 3mo ago

> Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point. Why is that a valid point?

tom_alexander 3mo ago
In my case, I am a very senior member of my team so 25-50% of each day is spent helping and/or teaching teammates. In situations like that, it is useful to be deeply familiar with the tools that your teammates are using so you can tell them exactly what to do. For example, if I'm teaching a new hire to set up their vscode it is not very helpful to tell them "now you need to activate the python venv". It is much more helpful to be able to tell them "Now we're going to activate the python venv. To do that, open your command palette and search for 'select python interpreter'". In my personal life, I still exclusively use emacs (which I have scripted to auto-detect venvs) but I put up with using vscode at work to be a greater utility to my team.
- shakow 3mo ago
  At some point, shouldn't installing a venv be a pre-requisite to actually be hired as a dev?
  - kleiba2 3mo ago
    That was just an example. The point of the parent is that in an ideal situation, where everything works without flaw, theoretically it makes no difference which tools everyone uses. In real life, you having a homogeneous setup across a team makes the sysadmin's job a lot easier.
    - shakow 3mo ago
      But sysadmins should be there to deploy stuff and make sure the infra does its job, not get bogged down handholding some dev that can't even compile a project.
      - 3mo ago

masfoobar 3mo ago

At a company I work for, they are doing various changes (and control) over the software we install as we transition to a larger company. I believe they are using Microsoft Intune so they can allow/deny what can be installed. I have not updated my laptop (or got a new one) because I am concerned they will not allow me to install or continue to use Emacs. Honestly, I can vision how that conversation goes:- [manager]: Hi, so what is Emacs [me]: Emacs is a text editor I use daily and makes me efficient in my work [manager]: OK. I would like us to start using Visual Studio Code with the new projects coming up [me]: Why? The consumption models we are using has no VSCode support, anyway. [manager]: It would just be good if we are all using the same tools [me]: It should not matter what we use as long as we work with git and deployment. If someone else is great with a different text editor why force them to use something else? [manager]: (Looks up emacs) [manager]: I think its best we stopped using it because it is not supported by Microsoft and we need to be careful with the dangers of open source. [me]: OK. Should we contact other IT departments to replace any open source tools they use? [manager]: Its just emacs is not verified software for the business. I think you are complicating things a little (tries to belittle me) [me]: Emacs is my daily driver! If it goes, I will hand in my resignation! * Manager is not there to understand or reason.. he is just following orders from other IT departments. *

jhghbj 3mo ago
[dead]
ks6g10 3mo ago
I scheduled my intune upgrade when I needed a week off for doing house moving stuff. I was told Emacs would work, didn't. Took them about a week before I could use it again.
kleiba2 3mo ago
I worked briefly in public administration at one point in my career. I asked the admins the same thing, could I get Emacs installed on my machine. I got a bit concerned when the admin staff asked back: "What is Emacs?"
- 3mo ago

skilning 3mo ago

> Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point No. That's only a valid point if something about the tool must be shared between users, rather than just the output. Emacs is a text editor. It reads, modifies, and produces text. The correct tool for each team member to use is the one they're most productive with, full stop. Jesus fucking Shiva while Odin watches, but I hate corporate management "thinking". It's just become more and more brain-dead over the decades.

clircle 3mo ago

Emacs users (myself included) would feel less like cramming every aspect of our work into Emacs if more tools embodied the freedom and hackability that comes with using Emacs. It's not that Emacs is better, it's that other tools are more restrictive and not self-documenting.

NoGravitas 3mo ago
It's also helpful that you get a certain degree of UI consistency from things like completing-read being used everywhere. And even when some package departs from convention, everything is still a buffer, so anything in it is easy to reuse.
kleiba2 3mo ago
That, and also the fact that everything is well-integrated and interoperable, allowing a more seamless interaction between the different tools.

rglullis 3mo ago

> Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point. Why?! It is a text editor for crying out loud. If you are more productive using the tools you want, don't cost anything to the company and doesn't force your colleagues to adopt your workflow, you could be working with notepad for all I care.

Arubis 3mo ago

Having everyone on a team have different personalities is managerially inefficient. You have to deal with each team member in a different way instead of being able to have a unified emotional approach. So we required frontal lobotomies for everyone on the team.

koiueo 3mo ago
Unironically. I once was told by my manager, that I got to fix being an introvert. I stayed for 8 months in that company (would be less, but such is the expat's life on a visa), and leaving was the best professional decision of my life.

isityettime 3mo ago

What about the job is so good as to make you tolerate this?

TylerE 3mo ago
Taken a look at the job market lately? Unless you’re like the top 1% (which most people aren’t), it’s extremely bleak.
- kleiba2 3mo ago
  Plus, I'm not very hirable to begin with, having wasted most of my professional life in academia.

BeetleB 3mo ago

> Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point. Not really. If they mandated all team members use telnet instead of ssh, would you say their position is valid? Anyway, the important thing to learn is "You're not supposed to ask if you can use Emacs. Just use it!" Incidentally, do they have a mandated general text editor? And if they do, will you get in trouble for firing up Notepad? Do they have a mandated TODO tool (for your own tracking of work, not something like Jira meant for the whole group)? I've yet encountered a place that did. Basically, find some category that Emacs does that they've not mandated, and then install Emacs and tell people you're using it for that category :-)

iLemming 3mo ago

What a nightmare. The day anyone tells me not to use a specific editor regardless of what it is, I'd be opening their suggested one to type my resignation letter. And not because I love Emacs, Vim or whatever. I mean I'd understand enforcing using specific tools while pair-programming, mentoring, etc., but not allowing a software engineer to use whatever editor they are most comfortable using at all is not even dystopian, it's simply imbecilic. How are they supposed to not just "perform" but to get any shit done at all? It's equivalent of hiring a secretary and asking them to type everything in Hebrew (a language they have zero awareness of), using Dvorak (a layout they've never tried) and then complaining that their typing speed is undesirable. How the fuck do these people even get to managerial positions? How in the world are these kinds of companies and company cultures not bankrupted themselves out of existence?

phyzix5761 3mo ago

You could set the building on fire.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]