5 ms·

How is it unprofessional when it is simply someone giving their honest personal opinion on an issue that involves something that is valuable to them, on their p

by 0xpgm 3mo ago

How is it unprofessional when it is simply someone giving their honest personal opinion on an issue that involves something that is valuable to them, on their personal blog nonetheless. Is everyone a walking and talking brand now so that they have to always filter their words, walk on eggshells, hide behind corpo-speak so as to seem 'professional'? More honest discourse is required in today's world, not less. It seems interactions online are becoming less and less authentic.

ModernMech 3mo ago
> Those people talked to each other. Everybody talked to everybody. The grapevine was large and healthy and full of juicy grapes, and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. There’s a big gap between corpo speak and “stinky manager”. That’s nowhere close to professional writing. And he’s not giving us his personal opinion, Kelley is telling us the conclusion of the “grape vine” - he’s reporting on rumors and gossip, and agreeing with it.
- 27183 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - orangedog 3mo ago
    He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project.
    - 27183 3mo ago
      > He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project. What? So let me get this straight--if my open source project which I have given away for free becomes "major" (for some definition) then all of a sudden I have to filter my writing through some kind of average acceptableness test? Come on. [edit] It would be one thing if this was published on Zig letterhead, but it was the guy's personal blog...
      - em-bee 3mo ago
        you have to if you want to continue to attract users and contributors. if you don't care about that then feel free.
      - orangedog 3mo ago
        You have to if you give a shit about the community you are leading, yes. You're not operating as a private figure in that role, everything you do affects the community and it is blind or selfish to act otherwise.
        27183 3mo ago
        This is so deeply wrong. This person owes you nothing. You're accusing them of "selfishness" after they've given away thousands of hours of their time... Your entitlement is just breathtaking.
        deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
        em-bee 3mo ago
        giving away thousands of hours of work does not entitle you to be abusive to your users and contributors. i am entitled to walk away from your project if i don't like your tone.
        ai_critic 3mo ago
        I dunno man taking 60KUSD a year only to be catty about the donor is a bit entitled as well.
        deanCommie 3mo ago
        Look, I get where you're coming from, I do. In the last decade, we've seen rampant abuses and exploitation of open source projects and of maintainers. So much individual good will and generous efforts wasted because of corporate malfeasanse. AND YET. If you "open source" a project, if you actually invest in BUILDING a community, you then become a PART Of that community - with the benefits and obligations that come with it. You don't want the obligations? Fine. But then you don't really get to keep participating in the community. And if you act like "This is MY community, I get to do whatever I want", people are free to shrug, and say "maybe i'll go find a different community". Which is exactly how I see people reacting to Zig right now. They're seeing that an active member of this community (which, as you said, keeps insisting "he owes them nothing because the community wouldn't exist without them") treats people he doesn't like, and they think "Oof i don't want that to one day be me."
  - em-bee 3mo ago
    he doesn't owe it, but his writing reflects on him and the project. personal blog or not, the writing shows his personality, and that in turn affects how comfortable i am using a project led by this person. if this was just one of many zig developers then it would not matter as much, but as this is the founder and leader, his personality has a major impact on the project as whole. especially in how it attracts contributors, and how long those contributors will stay around.
    - 27183 3mo ago
      Maybe it's just filtering for the right contributors? More isn't always better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - Ar-Curunir 3mo ago
        Yeah, and the kind of contributors you attract with this kind of writing are just assholes
        27183 3mo ago
        I'm not sure if you're intentionally branding an entire language community that way or not but it might be less broadly offensive to tone that down. You could make a similar point by saying something like "I don't like the message he's sending so I won't participate" without labeling anyone who associates with him an "asshole".
        em-bee 3mo ago
        the point is that such language attracts people who have a high tolerance for such language. not all of them are going to be assholes, but tolerating assholes is also bad.
        Shorn 3mo ago
        > You could make a similar point by saying something like "I don't like the message he's sending so I won't participate" Sooo.... "be more professional in your writing"? Why does this person owe you "professional writing" on their personal comment?
  - ModernMech 3mo ago
    He doesn't owe me anything. But his community deserve better than this.
    - 27183 3mo ago
      If they want better than that the fork button is up and to the right.
      - ModernMech 3mo ago
        I mean you’re not wrong, the only power his community has is to vote with their feet, and that’s what will happen. We’ve seen it before in other languages where the BDFL had an unchecked ego problem. Others brought up Elm and Evan and I agree. We all saw how that turned out.
  - newaccountman2 3mo ago
    Why do we owe him the withholding of criticism for what he writes on his blog he puts out there on the internet in the hopes that people will take his side/adopt his opinion?
- nsagent 3mo ago
  Treat it as a data point and make your own decisions (he does back it up with several sources that indicate a workaholic mentality with that expectation for others). Hiding it ends up perpetuating the behavior unseen. *Below is an aside that explains why I think it's better to air these things even if it seems like "rumors and gossip." I know first hand how toxic some people are irl compared to their public persona. There was a professor in my department during my PhD who was known to be a slave driver, but there are no accounts of it outside of the department. We would have to warn incoming students about working with her, though sometimes they wouldn't believe it could be as bad as we said. I spoke with one of her students after she left the lab due to being hospitalized for exhaustion from overwork: the professor contacted her while she was still hospitalized and asked her to complete a task ffs!
neutronicus 3mo ago
[flagged]
- swiftcoder 3mo ago
  Nah, corpo-speak is the original slop. The result of too many comms/legal inputs to a conversation. Professional communication is direct, clear, and ideally courteous (but only to a point).
  - dom96 3mo ago
    Calling someone’s code “slop” surely isn’t professional nor courteous.
    - melodyogonna 3mo ago
      Well, I can't think of other people more qualified to know when a Zig code is slop.
    - neutronicus 3mo ago
      Nor is polemic against financiers.
    - grayhatter 3mo ago
      it is. If I call your code slop, I'm being professional and courteous. The truth doesn't have a ethical value. Me calling your code slop might feel disrespectful, but it's less disrespectful than trying to pass slop off for your coworkers (or users) to use and deal with. Lying to someone, and allowing someone who's supposedly your friend to ship slop is more disrespectful. If I wrote shitty code, and my friend didn't stop me, and I find out later he knew it was shitty code... that would be very hard on our friendship. Unless you meant it's a lie to call it slop code. A lie would be disrespectful, but then again, we both know you didn't say that because it's not a lie.
      - dom96 3mo ago
        Calling something "slop" is dismissive, vague and not constructive. That's why it's not professional. If you want to tell someone their code quality is poor, then you better do so with specific things that is poor so that the person you are telling it to can learn and do better.
cheikhcheikh 3mo ago
Did you actually read it ? "Stinky manager" "alreay writing slop before llm" and nore insults, cmon now...
illiac786 3mo ago
Honest and professional is not the same, to summarize. You can be both, but you definitely can be honest and unprofessional or even childish. Children are very honest for example.
kamikazechaser 3mo ago
The wanna cancel Andrew and Zig by extension for hot-takes.
frollogaston 2mo ago
Lack of corpo tone and style is nice. Bun's article on this had some nice technical details, but I got a whiff of salespeople speaking and stopped reading, can't stand it. The content here is the issue. Bun converted their codebase from Zig to Rust, citing specific technical mismatches of Bun using Zig. The response is that Jarred was rumored to be bad at his job, Jarred was mean to people, and Zig didn't like dealing with Bun anyway because of their sloppy code. Maybe all of this is honest, but it's too convenient.

by 0xpgm 3mo ago

ModernMech 3mo ago

> Those people talked to each other. Everybody talked to everybody. The grapevine was large and healthy and full of juicy grapes, and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. There’s a big gap between corpo speak and “stinky manager”. That’s nowhere close to professional writing. And he’s not giving us his personal opinion, Kelley is telling us the conclusion of the “grape vine” - he’s reporting on rumors and gossip, and agreeing with it.

27183 3mo ago
[flagged]
- orangedog 3mo ago
  He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project.
  - 27183 3mo ago
    > He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project. What? So let me get this straight--if my open source project which I have given away for free becomes "major" (for some definition) then all of a sudden I have to filter my writing through some kind of average acceptableness test? Come on. [edit] It would be one thing if this was published on Zig letterhead, but it was the guy's personal blog...
    - em-bee 3mo ago
      you have to if you want to continue to attract users and contributors. if you don't care about that then feel free.
    - orangedog 3mo ago
      You have to if you give a shit about the community you are leading, yes. You're not operating as a private figure in that role, everything you do affects the community and it is blind or selfish to act otherwise.
      - 27183 3mo ago
        This is so deeply wrong. This person owes you nothing. You're accusing them of "selfishness" after they've given away thousands of hours of their time... Your entitlement is just breathtaking.
        deleted 3mo ago
        [deleted]
        em-bee 3mo ago
        giving away thousands of hours of work does not entitle you to be abusive to your users and contributors. i am entitled to walk away from your project if i don't like your tone.
        ai_critic 3mo ago
        I dunno man taking 60KUSD a year only to be catty about the donor is a bit entitled as well.
        deanCommie 3mo ago
        Look, I get where you're coming from, I do. In the last decade, we've seen rampant abuses and exploitation of open source projects and of maintainers. So much individual good will and generous efforts wasted because of corporate malfeasanse. AND YET. If you "open source" a project, if you actually invest in BUILDING a community, you then become a PART Of that community - with the benefits and obligations that come with it. You don't want the obligations? Fine. But then you don't really get to keep participating in the community. And if you act like "This is MY community, I get to do whatever I want", people are free to shrug, and say "maybe i'll go find a different community". Which is exactly how I see people reacting to Zig right now. They're seeing that an active member of this community (which, as you said, keeps insisting "he owes them nothing because the community wouldn't exist without them") treats people he doesn't like, and they think "Oof i don't want that to one day be me."
- em-bee 3mo ago
  he doesn't owe it, but his writing reflects on him and the project. personal blog or not, the writing shows his personality, and that in turn affects how comfortable i am using a project led by this person. if this was just one of many zig developers then it would not matter as much, but as this is the founder and leader, his personality has a major impact on the project as whole. especially in how it attracts contributors, and how long those contributors will stay around.
  - 27183 3mo ago
    Maybe it's just filtering for the right contributors? More isn't always better ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - Ar-Curunir 3mo ago
      Yeah, and the kind of contributors you attract with this kind of writing are just assholes
      - 27183 3mo ago
        I'm not sure if you're intentionally branding an entire language community that way or not but it might be less broadly offensive to tone that down. You could make a similar point by saying something like "I don't like the message he's sending so I won't participate" without labeling anyone who associates with him an "asshole".
        em-bee 3mo ago
        the point is that such language attracts people who have a high tolerance for such language. not all of them are going to be assholes, but tolerating assholes is also bad.
        Shorn 3mo ago
        > You could make a similar point by saying something like "I don't like the message he's sending so I won't participate" Sooo.... "be more professional in your writing"? Why does this person owe you "professional writing" on their personal comment?
- ModernMech 3mo ago
  He doesn't owe me anything. But his community deserve better than this.
  - 27183 3mo ago
    If they want better than that the fork button is up and to the right.
    - ModernMech 3mo ago
      I mean you’re not wrong, the only power his community has is to vote with their feet, and that’s what will happen. We’ve seen it before in other languages where the BDFL had an unchecked ego problem. Others brought up Elm and Evan and I agree. We all saw how that turned out.
- newaccountman2 3mo ago
  Why do we owe him the withholding of criticism for what he writes on his blog he puts out there on the internet in the hopes that people will take his side/adopt his opinion?
nsagent 3mo ago
Treat it as a data point and make your own decisions (he does back it up with several sources that indicate a workaholic mentality with that expectation for others). Hiding it ends up perpetuating the behavior unseen. *Below is an aside that explains why I think it's better to air these things even if it seems like "rumors and gossip." I know first hand how toxic some people are irl compared to their public persona. There was a professor in my department during my PhD who was known to be a slave driver, but there are no accounts of it outside of the department. We would have to warn incoming students about working with her, though sometimes they wouldn't believe it could be as bad as we said. I spoke with one of her students after she left the lab due to being hospitalized for exhaustion from overwork: the professor contacted her while she was still hospitalized and asked her to complete a task ffs!

neutronicus 3mo ago

[flagged]

swiftcoder 3mo ago
Nah, corpo-speak is the original slop. The result of too many comms/legal inputs to a conversation. Professional communication is direct, clear, and ideally courteous (but only to a point).
- dom96 3mo ago
  Calling someone’s code “slop” surely isn’t professional nor courteous.
  - melodyogonna 3mo ago
    Well, I can't think of other people more qualified to know when a Zig code is slop.
  - neutronicus 3mo ago
    Nor is polemic against financiers.
  - grayhatter 3mo ago
    it is. If I call your code slop, I'm being professional and courteous. The truth doesn't have a ethical value. Me calling your code slop might feel disrespectful, but it's less disrespectful than trying to pass slop off for your coworkers (or users) to use and deal with. Lying to someone, and allowing someone who's supposedly your friend to ship slop is more disrespectful. If I wrote shitty code, and my friend didn't stop me, and I find out later he knew it was shitty code... that would be very hard on our friendship. Unless you meant it's a lie to call it slop code. A lie would be disrespectful, but then again, we both know you didn't say that because it's not a lie.
    - dom96 3mo ago
      Calling something "slop" is dismissive, vague and not constructive. That's why it's not professional. If you want to tell someone their code quality is poor, then you better do so with specific things that is poor so that the person you are telling it to can learn and do better.

cheikhcheikh 3mo ago

Did you actually read it ? "Stinky manager" "alreay writing slop before llm" and nore insults, cmon now...

illiac786 3mo ago

Honest and professional is not the same, to summarize. You can be both, but you definitely can be honest and unprofessional or even childish. Children are very honest for example.

kamikazechaser 3mo ago

The wanna cancel Andrew and Zig by extension for hot-takes.

frollogaston 2mo ago

Lack of corpo tone and style is nice. Bun's article on this had some nice technical details, but I got a whiff of salespeople speaking and stopped reading, can't stand it. The content here is the issue. Bun converted their codebase from Zig to Rust, citing specific technical mismatches of Bun using Zig. The response is that Jarred was rumored to be bad at his job, Jarred was mean to people, and Zig didn't like dealing with Bun anyway because of their sloppy code. Maybe all of this is honest, but it's too convenient.