3 ms·

> Two, I actually don't have any personal criticisms of Jarred That’s quite a statement to make at the end of a post that seems to contain little else…all just

by Havoc 4mo ago

> Two, I actually don't have any personal criticisms of Jarred That’s quite a statement to make at the end of a post that seems to contain little else…all just thinly veiled. Saying someone has „beginner energy“ but reframing it as a faux positive (this person fails and thus learns) Or saying the grapevine says someone is a „stinky manager“? Basically I’m not saying this person is bad it’s just that I need to bring up on this blog that everyone agrees this person is bad. All seems to be in very poor taste even if true…

vitorfblima 4mo ago
I'm quite confused by this. Is calling someone a "stinky manager" a personal attack? It's funny that we can't differentiate the person from his "job". I work with some shitty managers, but I don't hold it against them on a personal level...
- Havoc 4mo ago
  Don’t think there is a clear line to draw as to where the person stops and the professional performance starts when it comes to management because on soft skill it is inherently driven by personal attributes. It’s a bit like a good salesman exudes likeability - it’s integral to the performance of the job and part of the person. He may well be a shit manager. I have no idea. Either way it’s not something you casually throw out there in a blog like this
  - elktown 4mo ago
    [flagged]
- fourseventy 4mo ago
  Are you serious? If I told you to your face "you are shitty at your job" you don't see that as a personal attack?
  - miyoji 4mo ago
    It depends on what job you're talking about. I've definitely been shitty at several that I've had in my life, if you're talking about those I would simply agree with you.
  - conartist6 4mo ago
    Sure, but getting a bad perf review then, is that necessarily a personal attack? Andrew and Jarred and I are all peers in this situation. You get reviews from your peers.
    - threatofrain 4mo ago
      I don't understand, why isn't your attention focused on the claim that Jarred lies in professional settings and in public? Jarred himself shows up to post receipts with barely any commentary, showing where the focus is. Anyways, what do you think about Jarred? Do you think he lies about Andrew in public? What was the term Andrew used? Outright fabrication?
      - conartist6 4mo ago
        I value competence above all else, and bullshitting (e.g. using AI to say you used AI) is the opposite of competence. I wouldn't claim he's lying because I have no first-hand knowledge to base such a claim on. I just think his whole persona is about selling the idea that "you don't need to look at the code anymore". I would have a hard time calling that a lie because I think he really believes it. It does mean that I think of him as a fool or a pawn, though: a friendly face whose purpose is to give a feeling of safety and human harmlessness to a destructive agenda of machine supremacy. My moral condemnation for that is as strong as if I thought he was simply lying, and perhaps stronger.
        mathisfun123 4mo ago
        > I value competence above all else This is very beginner energy lol. Are you possibly a teenager? > and bullshitting (e.g. using AI to say you used AI) is the opposite of competence. Your username name is conartist6....
- orangedog 4mo ago
  You do your job for hours every week, it is undoubtedly part of you. Calling somebody that is very personal and rude. I'm shocked that there are this many people who don't find issue with it. It removes any kindness from the post and turns it all up to 11. I's deeply personal. Do some of you really talk to others like this and find no issue with it? It's hard to say words like that and not end up with deep schisms and hatred.
- em-bee 4mo ago
  Is calling someone a "stinky manager" a personal attack? yes!
  - ale 4mo ago
    Stinky manager != stinky person
    - mb2100 4mo ago
      Some people even like stinky!
      - ebilgenius 4mo ago
        Come on now.
      - em-bee 4mo ago
        only if it's cheese or tofu.
    - em-bee 4mo ago
      an attack is not personal because it encompasses the whole person, but because it targets an aspect of that person. for an attack to be not personal it would have to target a category of people. "software developers are stinky managers" is not a personal attack. neither is "managers are stinky", but "you/he/she/etc are something" is personal. it may not be an attack though if it is still part of a generalization: "you are a stinky manager because all software developers are stinky managers". but the article is not making that generalization, and therefore it's not just personal but also an attack.
    - ebilgenius 4mo ago
      Calling someone stinky is a personal & childish attack. It doesn't matter how you attach it to some other label. What Kelley would have said if he were acting like an adult & offering professional criticism was that Jarred was a bad manager. Ineffective, even. That is what an adult would have said there.
- cognitiveinline 4mo ago
  Lol. Imagine you were called a stinky employee, and you thinking that's not a personal attack. Would be very noble of you.
- xlii 4mo ago
  Word-engineer hat on: > The grapevine was (...), and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. Per exact words these two are different: - I think someone is stinky - I spoke with people who said someone is stinky i.e. I might myself not share the sentinment, or not know anything about it, or simply not engage - relay is not an opinion in itself.
  - krupan 4mo ago
    You got it wrong. - I think someone is stinky at this one particular thing - I spoke with people who said he was stinky at this one particular thing Those are different than personal attacks
- Ar-Curunir 4mo ago
  How do these statements read to you: You’re a shitty programmer! Vs “your code is bad”. Who is the subject of these sentences?
  - jononor 4mo ago
    Or "this code (which you happened to write) is bad" vs "you are a shitty programmer".
- tomjakubowski 4mo ago
  It may be hard to separate the work and non-work personas of Jarred in particular. I watched an interview with Jarred where the interviewer asked what he liked to do for fun, what were his hobbies outside of work, and so on. His answer was that he liked working on Bun, and that's all he did. I felt a bit sad for him about it: even Linus T. has hobbies (like diving) and has raised a family. That said, it isn't necessarily the case that workaholics are bad managers, or that they insist on workaholism in their subordinates. We, generally, don't have access to Andrew's rumornet, we can only go off what Jarred's said publicly.
  - jdelman 4mo ago
    Inappropriate comparison. Did Linus raise a family by age 30?
- cheikhcheikh 4mo ago
  Man these are some impressive mental gymnastics... yes its an insult, made very public. It, and the rest of the insults, are very disrespectful and reflects very poorly on andrew and paints him as petty and childish
Aurornis 4mo ago
It’s an inconsistent statement to make when the rest of the article contains ad hominem attacks like these: > The grapevine was large and healthy and full of juicy grapes, and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. > Jarred was already writing slop well before he had access to LLMs. This is a weirdly childish post. I enjoy a good post where someone speaks their mind without running it through the corporate speak filter first, but it also gives you insights into how a person thinks and operates. With good leadership you can strip away the corporate filter and the result is still professional, but this article reveals something much less than professional
- franktankbank 4mo ago
  I think its worthwhile to hear how some self promoting person is actually a piece of crap.
phoronixrly 4mo ago
Beginner energy is faux? I relish my beginner energy in all my side projects - I fail and learn. This is completely normal when done safely and without people depending on you. Unlike management.
audunw 4mo ago
I didn’t read the beginner energy comment as faux positive at all. In fact Andrew has commented about his own beginner energy just recently and shared some embarrassing forum post he made as a teenager. Stinky manager.. I could see, but even if his wording was more polite he’d still be criticised just as much, people would just say the personal criticism is “thinly veiled”. We could argue a lot about how he should have worded himself, but in the end he wanted to (and had all right) to talk about how Jarreds coding and management style affected their professional relationship. According to commenters here on hacker news it seems like he simply is not allowed to talk about that. Even if he goes as far as possible in making it explicit that it’s not personal.
ungovernableCat 4mo ago
>I actually accept Jarred for who he is, and actually perceive him as successful by his own standards This was my favourite part. Nerd drama is entertaining.
srid 4mo ago
Glad someone noticed this. And that is the crux of the whole issue here, as explained in https://sipping-delicious-tea.pages.dev/ https://sipping-delicious-tea.pages.dev/

by Havoc 4mo ago

vitorfblima 4mo ago

I'm quite confused by this. Is calling someone a "stinky manager" a personal attack? It's funny that we can't differentiate the person from his "job". I work with some shitty managers, but I don't hold it against them on a personal level...

Havoc 4mo ago
Don’t think there is a clear line to draw as to where the person stops and the professional performance starts when it comes to management because on soft skill it is inherently driven by personal attributes. It’s a bit like a good salesman exudes likeability - it’s integral to the performance of the job and part of the person. He may well be a shit manager. I have no idea. Either way it’s not something you casually throw out there in a blog like this
- elktown 4mo ago
  [flagged]
fourseventy 4mo ago
Are you serious? If I told you to your face "you are shitty at your job" you don't see that as a personal attack?
- miyoji 4mo ago
  It depends on what job you're talking about. I've definitely been shitty at several that I've had in my life, if you're talking about those I would simply agree with you.
- conartist6 4mo ago
  Sure, but getting a bad perf review then, is that necessarily a personal attack? Andrew and Jarred and I are all peers in this situation. You get reviews from your peers.
  - threatofrain 4mo ago
    I don't understand, why isn't your attention focused on the claim that Jarred lies in professional settings and in public? Jarred himself shows up to post receipts with barely any commentary, showing where the focus is. Anyways, what do you think about Jarred? Do you think he lies about Andrew in public? What was the term Andrew used? Outright fabrication?
    - conartist6 4mo ago
      I value competence above all else, and bullshitting (e.g. using AI to say you used AI) is the opposite of competence. I wouldn't claim he's lying because I have no first-hand knowledge to base such a claim on. I just think his whole persona is about selling the idea that "you don't need to look at the code anymore". I would have a hard time calling that a lie because I think he really believes it. It does mean that I think of him as a fool or a pawn, though: a friendly face whose purpose is to give a feeling of safety and human harmlessness to a destructive agenda of machine supremacy. My moral condemnation for that is as strong as if I thought he was simply lying, and perhaps stronger.
      - mathisfun123 4mo ago
        > I value competence above all else This is very beginner energy lol. Are you possibly a teenager? > and bullshitting (e.g. using AI to say you used AI) is the opposite of competence. Your username name is conartist6....
orangedog 4mo ago
You do your job for hours every week, it is undoubtedly part of you. Calling somebody that is very personal and rude. I'm shocked that there are this many people who don't find issue with it. It removes any kindness from the post and turns it all up to 11. I's deeply personal. Do some of you really talk to others like this and find no issue with it? It's hard to say words like that and not end up with deep schisms and hatred.
em-bee 4mo ago
Is calling someone a "stinky manager" a personal attack? yes!
- ale 4mo ago
  Stinky manager != stinky person
  - mb2100 4mo ago
    Some people even like stinky!
    - ebilgenius 4mo ago
      Come on now.
    - em-bee 4mo ago
      only if it's cheese or tofu.
  - em-bee 4mo ago
    an attack is not personal because it encompasses the whole person, but because it targets an aspect of that person. for an attack to be not personal it would have to target a category of people. "software developers are stinky managers" is not a personal attack. neither is "managers are stinky", but "you/he/she/etc are something" is personal. it may not be an attack though if it is still part of a generalization: "you are a stinky manager because all software developers are stinky managers". but the article is not making that generalization, and therefore it's not just personal but also an attack.
  - ebilgenius 4mo ago
    Calling someone stinky is a personal & childish attack. It doesn't matter how you attach it to some other label. What Kelley would have said if he were acting like an adult & offering professional criticism was that Jarred was a bad manager. Ineffective, even. That is what an adult would have said there.
cognitiveinline 4mo ago
Lol. Imagine you were called a stinky employee, and you thinking that's not a personal attack. Would be very noble of you.
xlii 4mo ago
Word-engineer hat on: > The grapevine was (...), and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. Per exact words these two are different: - I think someone is stinky - I spoke with people who said someone is stinky i.e. I might myself not share the sentinment, or not know anything about it, or simply not engage - relay is not an opinion in itself.
- krupan 4mo ago
  You got it wrong. - I think someone is stinky at this one particular thing - I spoke with people who said he was stinky at this one particular thing Those are different than personal attacks
Ar-Curunir 4mo ago
How do these statements read to you: You’re a shitty programmer! Vs “your code is bad”. Who is the subject of these sentences?
- jononor 4mo ago
  Or "this code (which you happened to write) is bad" vs "you are a shitty programmer".
tomjakubowski 4mo ago
It may be hard to separate the work and non-work personas of Jarred in particular. I watched an interview with Jarred where the interviewer asked what he liked to do for fun, what were his hobbies outside of work, and so on. His answer was that he liked working on Bun, and that's all he did. I felt a bit sad for him about it: even Linus T. has hobbies (like diving) and has raised a family. That said, it isn't necessarily the case that workaholics are bad managers, or that they insist on workaholism in their subordinates. We, generally, don't have access to Andrew's rumornet, we can only go off what Jarred's said publicly.
- jdelman 4mo ago
  Inappropriate comparison. Did Linus raise a family by age 30?
cheikhcheikh 4mo ago
Man these are some impressive mental gymnastics... yes its an insult, made very public. It, and the rest of the insults, are very disrespectful and reflects very poorly on andrew and paints him as petty and childish

Aurornis 4mo ago

It’s an inconsistent statement to make when the rest of the article contains ad hominem attacks like these: > The grapevine was large and healthy and full of juicy grapes, and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. > Jarred was already writing slop well before he had access to LLMs. This is a weirdly childish post. I enjoy a good post where someone speaks their mind without running it through the corporate speak filter first, but it also gives you insights into how a person thinks and operates. With good leadership you can strip away the corporate filter and the result is still professional, but this article reveals something much less than professional

franktankbank 4mo ago
I think its worthwhile to hear how some self promoting person is actually a piece of crap.

phoronixrly 4mo ago

Beginner energy is faux? I relish my beginner energy in all my side projects - I fail and learn. This is completely normal when done safely and without people depending on you. Unlike management.

audunw 4mo ago

I didn’t read the beginner energy comment as faux positive at all. In fact Andrew has commented about his own beginner energy just recently and shared some embarrassing forum post he made as a teenager. Stinky manager.. I could see, but even if his wording was more polite he’d still be criticised just as much, people would just say the personal criticism is “thinly veiled”. We could argue a lot about how he should have worded himself, but in the end he wanted to (and had all right) to talk about how Jarreds coding and management style affected their professional relationship. According to commenters here on hacker news it seems like he simply is not allowed to talk about that. Even if he goes as far as possible in making it explicit that it’s not personal.

ungovernableCat 4mo ago

>I actually accept Jarred for who he is, and actually perceive him as successful by his own standards This was my favourite part. Nerd drama is entertaining.

srid 4mo ago

Glad someone noticed this. And that is the crux of the whole issue here, as explained in https://sipping-delicious-tea.pages.dev/ https://sipping-delicious-tea.pages.dev/