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I found this post very refreshing! I’m sure it would have been very tempting to one-up the “PR-speak” of the Bun post. Likewise, it would have been very temptin

by fwlr 3mo ago

I found this post very refreshing! I’m sure it would have been very tempting to one-up the “PR-speak” of the Bun post. Likewise, it would have been very tempting to include the same set of facts that reflect negatively on Jarred, while studiously concealing one’s own opinion (eg “I heard people called him a stinky manager. I am not saying that, other people are, but I’m not”). I appreciated that it was just … genuine.

daishi55 3mo ago
It’s just one long ad hominem
- grahar64 3mo ago
  I don't think you are using that right. Saying someone is bringing a bad vibe to your project, as the point he has a bad vibe is just stating the conclusion. Like if someone calls you a bad programmer and doesn't hire you as a programmer, isn't ad hominem
  - roetlich 3mo ago
    No, the discussion started with a the article from Bun, stating that rust has some technical advantages for them. The response from the Zig creator is a bunch of personal attacks directed at one guy, like calling him a stinky manager. All of these are fully unrelated to which language is better for Bun. This is like the textbook definition of an ad hominem.
    - afiori 3mo ago
      To be pedantic the ad hominem fallacy is about trying to deny an argument by attacking the author, so in a discussion about zig Vs rust if Andrew isn't trying to enter the discussion and just argue "that guy was stinky, glad he is gone" is not really an ad hominem, just not classy let's say.
      - roetlich 3mo ago
        > if Andrew isn't trying to enter the discussion But he is. Both in the title, and in later half of the blog post, he directly enters that discussion. I'm not saying an ad hominem argument is always bad, but this clearly is one.
      - tomjakubowski 3mo ago
        You're both right: the essay does not really contain ad hominem fallacies, but the essay itself is surely an ad hominem attack, on Jarred as a person. No judgment here, I don't know Jarred or Andrew at all, but like other commenters I did find the closing paragraphs saying the author has no ill-will towards Jarred quite unbelievable.
    - jazzypants 3mo ago
      Ad Hominem is only a fallacy when the speaker's personal qualities are irrelevant to the topic at hand. When one man has unilateral control over a project, you have to consider it as an extension of their personality.
    - miyoji 3mo ago
      > This is like the textbook definition of an ad hominem. No, it isn't at all. Ad hominem is only in effect and fallacious when the logic turns on the personal attack. "You're wrong because you're stupid" is ad hominem. "You're wrong and also you're stupid" is impolite, but logically fine. To clarify, I think that the entire "History" section is unrelated to Andrew's argument, only the "Addressing the Blog Post" section actually contains arguments, and that section doesn't contain the rude comments, it's focused on technical decision-making.
      - roetlich 3mo ago
        Oh yes, I didn't clarify that I meant an argumentum ad hominem, which isn't the same thing as the informal fallacy of the same name. So yeah, I agree, this isn't directly fallacious.
        rrvsh 3mo ago
        prepending argumentum is literally just expanding the informal name for the fallacy to the full name of "an argument to the person", easily verifiable with one search query. unless you are saying that you were 1. originally just making your own contraction from argumentum ad hominem, 2. normally use latin in online forum comments, 3. often use ad hominem in your own speech to mean a different thing from the common parlance, i think this is an Obvious Fabrication (!!!)
        roetlich 3mo ago
        Love the exclamation marks. So let's just use, for example, this definition: https://www.britannica.com/topic/ad-hominem https://www.britannica.com/topic/ad-hominem Here it's a type of argument, and it's only sometimes a fallacy. Seems like this how it's defined most of the time, unless you explicitly look for "ad hominem fallacy". Ad hominem without any context can be vague, I guess, so I tried to be more explicit. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, English isn't my first language, but I think "Obvious Fabrication" (capital letters) is a bit silly.
        3mo ago
  - ModernMech 3mo ago
    Right I think the correct term is “character assassination”. It starts by calling him a novice, goes on to call him a “stinky manager”, and then lands the deepest cut possible in this profession: his code sucks. At least Kelley thanked him for his money. This is not refreshing, I usually expect better from Kelley. The best move would have been to say nothing at all except “best of luck, Zig will miss him but”. Now all Ziglings must wonder if they’re going to receive a hit piece from the Zig founder if they cross him.
    - jazzypants 3mo ago
      Do you think that all ziglings refuse to write idiomatic code, have public fights with the language maintainers, and then write giant blog posts about how they're ditching the language because it just isn't good enough?
      - p0nce 3mo ago
        In D we've had several angry rants of people saying they were leaving D (it doesn't happen as often since most things got fixed) for other pastures and the leadership has never acted in an unprofessional way.
      - tomnipotent 3mo ago
        > have public fights with the language maintainers Can you point to even one such example?
        jazzypants 3mo ago
        Here you go https://xcancel.com/bunjavascript/status/2048427636414923250 https://xcancel.com/bunjavascript/status/2048427636414923250 https://ziggit.dev/t/bun-s-zig-fork-got-4x-faster-compilation-times/15183/19 https://ziggit.dev/t/bun-s-zig-fork-got-4x-faster-compilatio... How many other Zig users publicly announced their unrequested fork of the language?
        tomnipotent 3mo ago
  - daishi55 3mo ago
    I think I am using it right. The implication of the whole post is that Jared's technical points about Zig vs Rust aren't valid because he's a bad programmer. The alternative interpretation is that calling Jared a bad programmer is a non-sequitur unrelated to the argument and is included purely out of spite. Take your pick I guess, but the way I meant it I was indeed using the term correctly.
- bakugo 3mo ago
  Part of it might feel like ad hominem, but I think the bluntness is justified in this case. It provides some pretty important context on the situation. As an outside observer who knew little about Zig and Bun, the impression I got is that the rewrite came out of nowhere, and that the Zig community was surprised by it. The post makes it quite clear that this wasn't the case, and describes how the actions and overall mentality of Bun's creator already suggested such a thing was likely to happen, straight from the mouth of someone who worked with him and isn't afraid to voice his thoughts. Not everything needs to be PR speak.
  - orangedog 3mo ago
    You can be blunt without being hateful or an asshole. It's not about PR, it's about treating other people as human beings.
- afavour 3mo ago
  It isn't. The grapevine stuff was unnecessary and should have been cut out but there is plenty of concrete stuff in there as well.
vitaminCPP 3mo ago
Agreed. This blog post strikes the balance between PR-speak and x.com
laurels-marts 3mo ago
Refreshing that the author doesn’t try to conceal his character or thoughts. The contents of his character and thoughts are quite objectionable though.
- zombot 3mo ago
  > The contents of his character and thoughts are quite objectionable That's just your opinion though, not an objective fact. I happen to be of the opposite opinion.

by fwlr 3mo ago

daishi55 3mo ago

It’s just one long ad hominem

grahar64 3mo ago
I don't think you are using that right. Saying someone is bringing a bad vibe to your project, as the point he has a bad vibe is just stating the conclusion. Like if someone calls you a bad programmer and doesn't hire you as a programmer, isn't ad hominem
- roetlich 3mo ago
  No, the discussion started with a the article from Bun, stating that rust has some technical advantages for them. The response from the Zig creator is a bunch of personal attacks directed at one guy, like calling him a stinky manager. All of these are fully unrelated to which language is better for Bun. This is like the textbook definition of an ad hominem.
  - afiori 3mo ago
    To be pedantic the ad hominem fallacy is about trying to deny an argument by attacking the author, so in a discussion about zig Vs rust if Andrew isn't trying to enter the discussion and just argue "that guy was stinky, glad he is gone" is not really an ad hominem, just not classy let's say.
    - roetlich 3mo ago
      > if Andrew isn't trying to enter the discussion But he is. Both in the title, and in later half of the blog post, he directly enters that discussion. I'm not saying an ad hominem argument is always bad, but this clearly is one.
    - tomjakubowski 3mo ago
      You're both right: the essay does not really contain ad hominem fallacies, but the essay itself is surely an ad hominem attack, on Jarred as a person. No judgment here, I don't know Jarred or Andrew at all, but like other commenters I did find the closing paragraphs saying the author has no ill-will towards Jarred quite unbelievable.
  - jazzypants 3mo ago
    Ad Hominem is only a fallacy when the speaker's personal qualities are irrelevant to the topic at hand. When one man has unilateral control over a project, you have to consider it as an extension of their personality.
  - miyoji 3mo ago
    > This is like the textbook definition of an ad hominem. No, it isn't at all. Ad hominem is only in effect and fallacious when the logic turns on the personal attack. "You're wrong because you're stupid" is ad hominem. "You're wrong and also you're stupid" is impolite, but logically fine. To clarify, I think that the entire "History" section is unrelated to Andrew's argument, only the "Addressing the Blog Post" section actually contains arguments, and that section doesn't contain the rude comments, it's focused on technical decision-making.
    - roetlich 3mo ago
      Oh yes, I didn't clarify that I meant an argumentum ad hominem, which isn't the same thing as the informal fallacy of the same name. So yeah, I agree, this isn't directly fallacious.
      - rrvsh 3mo ago
        prepending argumentum is literally just expanding the informal name for the fallacy to the full name of "an argument to the person", easily verifiable with one search query. unless you are saying that you were 1. originally just making your own contraction from argumentum ad hominem, 2. normally use latin in online forum comments, 3. often use ad hominem in your own speech to mean a different thing from the common parlance, i think this is an Obvious Fabrication (!!!)
        roetlich 3mo ago
        Love the exclamation marks. So let's just use, for example, this definition: https://www.britannica.com/topic/ad-hominem https://www.britannica.com/topic/ad-hominem Here it's a type of argument, and it's only sometimes a fallacy. Seems like this how it's defined most of the time, unless you explicitly look for "ad hominem fallacy". Ad hominem without any context can be vague, I guess, so I tried to be more explicit. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, English isn't my first language, but I think "Obvious Fabrication" (capital letters) is a bit silly.
        3mo ago
- ModernMech 3mo ago
  Right I think the correct term is “character assassination”. It starts by calling him a novice, goes on to call him a “stinky manager”, and then lands the deepest cut possible in this profession: his code sucks. At least Kelley thanked him for his money. This is not refreshing, I usually expect better from Kelley. The best move would have been to say nothing at all except “best of luck, Zig will miss him but”. Now all Ziglings must wonder if they’re going to receive a hit piece from the Zig founder if they cross him.
  - jazzypants 3mo ago
    Do you think that all ziglings refuse to write idiomatic code, have public fights with the language maintainers, and then write giant blog posts about how they're ditching the language because it just isn't good enough?
    - p0nce 3mo ago
      In D we've had several angry rants of people saying they were leaving D (it doesn't happen as often since most things got fixed) for other pastures and the leadership has never acted in an unprofessional way.
    - tomnipotent 3mo ago
      > have public fights with the language maintainers Can you point to even one such example?
      - jazzypants 3mo ago
        Here you go https://xcancel.com/bunjavascript/status/2048427636414923250 https://xcancel.com/bunjavascript/status/2048427636414923250 https://ziggit.dev/t/bun-s-zig-fork-got-4x-faster-compilation-times/15183/19 https://ziggit.dev/t/bun-s-zig-fork-got-4x-faster-compilatio... How many other Zig users publicly announced their unrequested fork of the language?
        tomnipotent 3mo ago
- daishi55 3mo ago
  I think I am using it right. The implication of the whole post is that Jared's technical points about Zig vs Rust aren't valid because he's a bad programmer. The alternative interpretation is that calling Jared a bad programmer is a non-sequitur unrelated to the argument and is included purely out of spite. Take your pick I guess, but the way I meant it I was indeed using the term correctly.
bakugo 3mo ago
Part of it might feel like ad hominem, but I think the bluntness is justified in this case. It provides some pretty important context on the situation. As an outside observer who knew little about Zig and Bun, the impression I got is that the rewrite came out of nowhere, and that the Zig community was surprised by it. The post makes it quite clear that this wasn't the case, and describes how the actions and overall mentality of Bun's creator already suggested such a thing was likely to happen, straight from the mouth of someone who worked with him and isn't afraid to voice his thoughts. Not everything needs to be PR speak.
- orangedog 3mo ago
  You can be blunt without being hateful or an asshole. It's not about PR, it's about treating other people as human beings.
afavour 3mo ago
It isn't. The grapevine stuff was unnecessary and should have been cut out but there is plenty of concrete stuff in there as well.

vitaminCPP 3mo ago

Agreed. This blog post strikes the balance between PR-speak and x.com

laurels-marts 3mo ago

Refreshing that the author doesn’t try to conceal his character or thoughts. The contents of his character and thoughts are quite objectionable though.

zombot 3mo ago
> The contents of his character and thoughts are quite objectionable That's just your opinion though, not an objective fact. I happen to be of the opposite opinion.