6 ms·

Does nobody read the fineprint? By submitting, posting, or publishing your content, suggestions, enhancement requests, recommendations, feedback, information,

Does nobody read the fineprint? By submitting, posting, or publishing your content, suggestions, enhancement requests, recommendations, feedback, information, data, or comments (“Content”) to any Website or Online Service, you are granting Cloudflare a perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free right and license (with the right to sublicense) to use, incorporate, exploit, display, perform, reproduce, distribute, and prepare derivative works of your Content. If you're ok with that, fine. But I'm not.

pjc50 3mo ago
This is true, but: you should see how many other cloud services have these terms. It's very insidious.
sevenzero 3mo ago
People are losing the ability to read. Lots of high schoolers are incapable of reading properly already. Attention spans shrink. We got some fun times ahead of us. We need these legal texts as short form TikTok content I am afraid.
- gmac 3mo ago
  I have plenty of ability to read, but I never read these T&Cs because they’re usually dozens of pages long and life’s too short (or, if you prefer, the cost/benefit doesn’t support it). For consumers in Europe, at least, it’s usually safe to assume that anything too shitty is unenforceable, which helps.
  - bigfudge 3mo ago
    Being “unenforceable” doesn’t stop them making your life a misery in the process, ruining your credit rating etc.
    - hyperman1 3mo ago
      As an EUian,I've never given one care about my credit rating. I don't even know if I have one. They can cause a long drawn out court battle, and abuse your data. Noyb is the real-world example here. Most companies depend on not being sued, and will fold if a regulater sends them notice.
  - lenkite 3mo ago
    A good idea for a Firefox extension. Something that parses T&C's and pops up a DANGER warning on a page.
    - latexr 3mo ago
      https://tosdr.org/en https://tosdr.org/en
  - latexr 3mo ago
    What life is too short for is being screwed over by and having to deal with the consequences of some agreement you were too lazy to read. These aren’t half as inscrutable as you think; after you read a couple you get a feel for them and can breeze through, honing on the parts that are important to you. I don’t need to spend more than a couple of minutes on a TOS before understanding if it’s awful or reasonable, and it has stopped me from opening accounts on services with truly awful provisions.
    - gmac 3mo ago
      I mean, that's fair. To an extent it depends how high the stakes are and whether there are realistic alternatives to a service.
- nvme0n1p1 3mo ago
  Here's Cloudflare's T&C in comic form, for those with short attention spans. https://nedroidcomics.tumblr.com/post/41879001445/the-internet https://nedroidcomics.tumblr.com/post/41879001445/the-intern...
- 9dev 3mo ago
  We need the polar opposite of that: Laws that ensure companies can’t put unreasonable clauses in fine print or long EULAs. That’s the way it works in many EU countries, and it’s a blessing. Nobody except lawyers should have to bother with legalese.
  - sevenzero 3mo ago
    That would require you to consult a lawyer for everything you do... I personally couldn't afford that.
vinothkumarnaga 3mo ago
Thank you for highlighting this :)
thelibrarian 3mo ago
If you don’t give them a license to display the works you give them to display, how can they legally display it?
- tritiy 3mo ago
  It states more than just display: 'to use, incorporate, exploit, display, perform, reproduce, distribute, and prepare derivative works'
  - PurpleRamen 3mo ago
    Can this be a necessary legal framing for technical purposes, to allow converting of pictures to different resolutions, or adapt the content to mobile views, and such things?
    - ak39 3mo ago
      Unlikely. It goes further by also using the word "exploit". If they needed permissions for conversion, they'd have made a specific mention of that and thereafter confirmed legal ownership.
      - dspillett 3mo ago
        TBH, I like that the word “exploit” is in there. It feels more honest and if it were not present!
    - another-dave 3mo ago
      I mean, even all else aside - why would they need a "perpetual, irrevocable" licence?
    - tremon 3mo ago
      To me this looks like legal preparation for selling their users' datasets for AI training purposes.
      - 3mo ago
harrouet 3mo ago
You beat me to it, I was going to post the same. Clear red flag, only useful for whistleblowers.
aweb 3mo ago
I'm always really doubtful this is applicable in the end, especially in the EU. You can't give up all your copyright like this
- jwr 3mo ago
  You can't give up the right to sign your work with your name. But you can definitely share rights to reproduce your work etc — although perhaps not in a clickable EULA.
  - whilenot-dev 3mo ago
    In Austria and Germany, you just cannot transfer the copyright ("Urheberrecht"). You can only transfer - meaning sell - the right of use ("Nutzungsrecht"). The only exception I know of is with employments, where the employer is the rightful copyright holder. The US, Switzerland, and maybe other legislations allow for the transfer of copyright.
    - jwr 3mo ago
      I believe we are talking about the same thing.
- tjoff 3mo ago
  Regardless, I'm not one to use or otherwise promote such shitty behavior. Not sure why cloudflare seems to be in such good standing on hn.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - psd1 3mo ago
    Early on, they had 30 points of presence with 11 employees - cool, but especially cool to John Galt fans.
- jampekka 3mo ago
  Maybe, but you may not afford to find out.
stanleychink 3mo ago
[dead]
Razengan 3mo ago
They will train AI on your shit.
zeratax 3mo ago
every website ever (except for github) has this exact same clause and everytime it's posted online, people freak out about it lol
- jkman 3mo ago
  >"everyone is doing it so stop complaining bro!!!!"
small_model 3mo ago
No body is stealing your blog, relax its boiler plate
- another-dave 3mo ago
  [dead]
blueflow 3mo ago
> your content Wouldn't it be fun to upload content of a big music label or smth like that?
- throawayonthe 3mo ago
  > By submitting, posting, and publishing your Content, you represent and warrant that your Content, does not: (i) infringe, violate, or misappropriate any third-party right, including any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, moral right, privacy right, right of publicity, or any other intellectual property or proprietary right; or (ii) slander, defame, or libel any third-party.
konnor 3mo ago
Have you read the fine print for other platforms? This is standard boilerplate for hosting companies so they don't run into issues putting your content on distributed CDNs, or if things are in their logs, etc. https://vercel.com/legal/terms#feedback https://vercel.com/legal/terms#feedback https://fly.io/legal/terms-of-service/#2-ownership https://fly.io/legal/terms-of-service/#2-ownership https://www.netlify.com/legal/terms-of-use/#3-your-content https://www.netlify.com/legal/terms-of-use/#3-your-content I want to be mad at Cloudflare as much as the next person, but Vercel, Netlify, Fly.io all have the same "legal-ese". I don't agree with it and it feels overly broad, but it seems hosting companies, at least US based ones, all have this same standard boilerplate around your content.
- millerm 3mo ago
  Sure, but right now we are talking about Cloudflare Drop. Whataboutism doesn't dismiss this specific issue. What we need then is someone that is good at collecting, digesting, and disseminating this information to the masses so that people can make better and informed decisions. I'm not good at much of anything these days, so unfortunately that isn't me as I have given up on just about everything. I think one of the real key areas is people seeing how their information is used. How much value it holds. Even if it's $0.50, if the companies had to pay this out to others each time they used the data then they couldn't afford it. That's the real issue at hand. People are working for free and making others powerful. They are unconsciously building a system where its main intent is to exploit the minds of the masses by weaponizing their behavior. It's all disgusting. I hate AI with every fiber of my being. Yes, there are a few areas where it's beneficial, but in total it's a disaster for us. I don't need to get further into that discussion here as it's irrelevant to the initial topic. Have a good day!
millerm 3mo ago
Wow, that's awful! Considering how incredibly easy they open anyone up to uploading sensitive content, it's ridiculously unsafe to have open like that. I only saw the home page, and clicked the buttons to see what they asked for. Absolutely not! I won't even attempt a simple hello.txt file. This is some dark pattern stuff. Plus AI, I reject it all. You are now making me rethink using any of Cloudflare's tech. I need to go and read the fine print for their DNS (1.1.1.1). I also wonder what their Turnstile conditions are being imposed on all of us. That sort of condition is disgusting.
rvba 3mo ago
If someone drops the Taylor Swift discography there, does Cloudflare get righs to it too? Is this some "smart" way to get the Books2 dataset and claim it was uploaded by its owners?

pjc50 3mo ago

This is true, but: you should see how many other cloud services have these terms. It's very insidious.

sevenzero 3mo ago

People are losing the ability to read. Lots of high schoolers are incapable of reading properly already. Attention spans shrink. We got some fun times ahead of us. We need these legal texts as short form TikTok content I am afraid.

gmac 3mo ago
I have plenty of ability to read, but I never read these T&Cs because they’re usually dozens of pages long and life’s too short (or, if you prefer, the cost/benefit doesn’t support it). For consumers in Europe, at least, it’s usually safe to assume that anything too shitty is unenforceable, which helps.
- bigfudge 3mo ago
  Being “unenforceable” doesn’t stop them making your life a misery in the process, ruining your credit rating etc.
  - hyperman1 3mo ago
    As an EUian,I've never given one care about my credit rating. I don't even know if I have one. They can cause a long drawn out court battle, and abuse your data. Noyb is the real-world example here. Most companies depend on not being sued, and will fold if a regulater sends them notice.
- lenkite 3mo ago
  A good idea for a Firefox extension. Something that parses T&C's and pops up a DANGER warning on a page.
  - latexr 3mo ago
    https://tosdr.org/en https://tosdr.org/en
- latexr 3mo ago
  What life is too short for is being screwed over by and having to deal with the consequences of some agreement you were too lazy to read. These aren’t half as inscrutable as you think; after you read a couple you get a feel for them and can breeze through, honing on the parts that are important to you. I don’t need to spend more than a couple of minutes on a TOS before understanding if it’s awful or reasonable, and it has stopped me from opening accounts on services with truly awful provisions.
  - gmac 3mo ago
    I mean, that's fair. To an extent it depends how high the stakes are and whether there are realistic alternatives to a service.
nvme0n1p1 3mo ago
Here's Cloudflare's T&C in comic form, for those with short attention spans. https://nedroidcomics.tumblr.com/post/41879001445/the-internet https://nedroidcomics.tumblr.com/post/41879001445/the-intern...
9dev 3mo ago
We need the polar opposite of that: Laws that ensure companies can’t put unreasonable clauses in fine print or long EULAs. That’s the way it works in many EU countries, and it’s a blessing. Nobody except lawyers should have to bother with legalese.
- sevenzero 3mo ago
  That would require you to consult a lawyer for everything you do... I personally couldn't afford that.

vinothkumarnaga 3mo ago

Thank you for highlighting this :)

thelibrarian 3mo ago

If you don’t give them a license to display the works you give them to display, how can they legally display it?

tritiy 3mo ago
It states more than just display: 'to use, incorporate, exploit, display, perform, reproduce, distribute, and prepare derivative works'
- PurpleRamen 3mo ago
  Can this be a necessary legal framing for technical purposes, to allow converting of pictures to different resolutions, or adapt the content to mobile views, and such things?
  - ak39 3mo ago
    Unlikely. It goes further by also using the word "exploit". If they needed permissions for conversion, they'd have made a specific mention of that and thereafter confirmed legal ownership.
    - dspillett 3mo ago
      TBH, I like that the word “exploit” is in there. It feels more honest and if it were not present!
  - another-dave 3mo ago
    I mean, even all else aside - why would they need a "perpetual, irrevocable" licence?
  - tremon 3mo ago
    To me this looks like legal preparation for selling their users' datasets for AI training purposes.
    - 3mo ago

harrouet 3mo ago

You beat me to it, I was going to post the same. Clear red flag, only useful for whistleblowers.

aweb 3mo ago

I'm always really doubtful this is applicable in the end, especially in the EU. You can't give up all your copyright like this

jwr 3mo ago
You can't give up the right to sign your work with your name. But you can definitely share rights to reproduce your work etc — although perhaps not in a clickable EULA.
- whilenot-dev 3mo ago
  In Austria and Germany, you just cannot transfer the copyright ("Urheberrecht"). You can only transfer - meaning sell - the right of use ("Nutzungsrecht"). The only exception I know of is with employments, where the employer is the rightful copyright holder. The US, Switzerland, and maybe other legislations allow for the transfer of copyright.
  - jwr 3mo ago
    I believe we are talking about the same thing.
tjoff 3mo ago
Regardless, I'm not one to use or otherwise promote such shitty behavior. Not sure why cloudflare seems to be in such good standing on hn.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- psd1 3mo ago
  Early on, they had 30 points of presence with 11 employees - cool, but especially cool to John Galt fans.
jampekka 3mo ago
Maybe, but you may not afford to find out.

stanleychink 3mo ago

[dead]

Razengan 3mo ago

They will train AI on your shit.

zeratax 3mo ago

every website ever (except for github) has this exact same clause and everytime it's posted online, people freak out about it lol

jkman 3mo ago
>"everyone is doing it so stop complaining bro!!!!"

small_model 3mo ago

No body is stealing your blog, relax its boiler plate

another-dave 3mo ago
[dead]

blueflow 3mo ago

> your content Wouldn't it be fun to upload content of a big music label or smth like that?

throawayonthe 3mo ago
> By submitting, posting, and publishing your Content, you represent and warrant that your Content, does not: (i) infringe, violate, or misappropriate any third-party right, including any copyright, trademark, patent, trade secret, moral right, privacy right, right of publicity, or any other intellectual property or proprietary right; or (ii) slander, defame, or libel any third-party.

konnor 3mo ago

Have you read the fine print for other platforms? This is standard boilerplate for hosting companies so they don't run into issues putting your content on distributed CDNs, or if things are in their logs, etc. https://vercel.com/legal/terms#feedback https://vercel.com/legal/terms#feedback https://fly.io/legal/terms-of-service/#2-ownership https://fly.io/legal/terms-of-service/#2-ownership https://www.netlify.com/legal/terms-of-use/#3-your-content https://www.netlify.com/legal/terms-of-use/#3-your-content I want to be mad at Cloudflare as much as the next person, but Vercel, Netlify, Fly.io all have the same "legal-ese". I don't agree with it and it feels overly broad, but it seems hosting companies, at least US based ones, all have this same standard boilerplate around your content.

millerm 3mo ago
Sure, but right now we are talking about Cloudflare Drop. Whataboutism doesn't dismiss this specific issue. What we need then is someone that is good at collecting, digesting, and disseminating this information to the masses so that people can make better and informed decisions. I'm not good at much of anything these days, so unfortunately that isn't me as I have given up on just about everything. I think one of the real key areas is people seeing how their information is used. How much value it holds. Even if it's $0.50, if the companies had to pay this out to others each time they used the data then they couldn't afford it. That's the real issue at hand. People are working for free and making others powerful. They are unconsciously building a system where its main intent is to exploit the minds of the masses by weaponizing their behavior. It's all disgusting. I hate AI with every fiber of my being. Yes, there are a few areas where it's beneficial, but in total it's a disaster for us. I don't need to get further into that discussion here as it's irrelevant to the initial topic. Have a good day!

millerm 3mo ago

Wow, that's awful! Considering how incredibly easy they open anyone up to uploading sensitive content, it's ridiculously unsafe to have open like that. I only saw the home page, and clicked the buttons to see what they asked for. Absolutely not! I won't even attempt a simple hello.txt file. This is some dark pattern stuff. Plus AI, I reject it all. You are now making me rethink using any of Cloudflare's tech. I need to go and read the fine print for their DNS (1.1.1.1). I also wonder what their Turnstile conditions are being imposed on all of us. That sort of condition is disgusting.

rvba 3mo ago

If someone drops the Taylor Swift discography there, does Cloudflare get righs to it too? Is this some "smart" way to get the Books2 dataset and claim it was uploaded by its owners?