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> For what it’s worth game devs often use C# or C++ engines which have even worse issues. Such as? You can't be referring to hot reload alone because you can a

by Rohansi 3mo ago

> For what it’s worth game devs often use C# or C++ engines which have even worse issues. Such as? You can't be referring to hot reload alone because you can already do that in both C++ and C#.

vlovich123 3mo ago
Well for c++ memory safety and sharp abstractions and even worse compile times than Rust. I’m not aware of hot reload really being done in c++ at any scale but I’m not a game dev so I’m open to learning. C# AFAIK holds a minor place in gamedev and also has slow compile times maybe? I assume it has better support for hot reload times. But generally the performance profile isn’t there for the most demanding games even if the DX is.
- Rohansi 3mo ago
  It's not specific to game dev but Visual Studio has hot reload for C++ that you should be able to make use of. C# compile times are fast. Performance is a lot better than you probably think, especially with modern .NET (not what Unity uses).
  - vlovich123 3mo ago
    Visual Studio limitations around hot reload are quite unrealistic for any serious codebase and only work on Windows with Visual Studio when you started it under a debugger. Rust’s hot reload is cross platform if I recall correctly and is always available until you disable it from the build (eg debug on, release off). It also has a better story for working around the limitations that Visual Studio just throws up on. C++ hot reload is not a common experience in the ecosystem.
    - Rohansi 3mo ago
      > only work on Windows with Visual Studio Really shouldn't be a dealbreaker when 95% of your users will be using Windows (to play games), so your most tested platform should be Windows. > when you started it under a debugger Hot reload isn't a replacement for scripting IMO. It will never be as good. Even hot reload in Rust would have more limitations than an actual scripting language.
      - vlovich123 3mo ago
        Sure, that doesn't take away from the experience of Rust being better than C++ even if you probably still want a scripting language too. In total Microsoft only holds ~12% of the total video game market share across PC and console in terms of owning the platform (i.e. Xbox + Windows). I think you're overestimating how many game developers get to use reverse debugging for gaming. In practice given the limitations for Visual Studio's implementation, I highly suspect that number is very rarely used anyway.
        pjmlp 3mo ago
        It is a share big enough that Valve cannot have games for the SteamDeck without Proton.
    - pjmlp 3mo ago
      Yes, it is, most game studios use Live++, a commercial product which whole goal is to enable live reload in game engines. Likewise CERN's ROOT is quite famous, nowadays superseded by CINT, and integrated in Jupiter netbooks via Xeus.

by Rohansi 3mo ago

> For what it’s worth game devs often use C# or C++ engines which have even worse issues. Such as? You can't be referring to hot reload alone because you can already do that in both C++ and C#.

vlovich123 3mo ago

Well for c++ memory safety and sharp abstractions and even worse compile times than Rust. I’m not aware of hot reload really being done in c++ at any scale but I’m not a game dev so I’m open to learning. C# AFAIK holds a minor place in gamedev and also has slow compile times maybe? I assume it has better support for hot reload times. But generally the performance profile isn’t there for the most demanding games even if the DX is.

Rohansi 3mo ago
It's not specific to game dev but Visual Studio has hot reload for C++ that you should be able to make use of. C# compile times are fast. Performance is a lot better than you probably think, especially with modern .NET (not what Unity uses).
- vlovich123 3mo ago
  Visual Studio limitations around hot reload are quite unrealistic for any serious codebase and only work on Windows with Visual Studio when you started it under a debugger. Rust’s hot reload is cross platform if I recall correctly and is always available until you disable it from the build (eg debug on, release off). It also has a better story for working around the limitations that Visual Studio just throws up on. C++ hot reload is not a common experience in the ecosystem.
  - Rohansi 3mo ago
    > only work on Windows with Visual Studio Really shouldn't be a dealbreaker when 95% of your users will be using Windows (to play games), so your most tested platform should be Windows. > when you started it under a debugger Hot reload isn't a replacement for scripting IMO. It will never be as good. Even hot reload in Rust would have more limitations than an actual scripting language.
    - vlovich123 3mo ago
      Sure, that doesn't take away from the experience of Rust being better than C++ even if you probably still want a scripting language too. In total Microsoft only holds ~12% of the total video game market share across PC and console in terms of owning the platform (i.e. Xbox + Windows). I think you're overestimating how many game developers get to use reverse debugging for gaming. In practice given the limitations for Visual Studio's implementation, I highly suspect that number is very rarely used anyway.
      - pjmlp 3mo ago
        It is a share big enough that Valve cannot have games for the SteamDeck without Proton.
  - pjmlp 3mo ago
    Yes, it is, most game studios use Live++, a commercial product which whole goal is to enable live reload in game engines. Likewise CERN's ROOT is quite famous, nowadays superseded by CINT, and integrated in Jupiter netbooks via Xeus.