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To everyone who wants to dismantle the EU: this is not the solution. Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house just to get rid of flies. The UK lef

To everyone who wants to dismantle the EU: this is not the solution. Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house just to get rid of flies. The UK left the EU and implemented its own version of chat control - Online Safety Act - without any transparency or real opposition. The right solution is the political fight. Europe is our home. We must keep it in good shape by getting rid of anything that makes it worse - like Chat Control.

Insimwytim 3mo ago
Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house I'm not an expert, but isn't "your own house" should rather be your country in this analogy? It ought to be still there without some bureaucratic institution on top of it.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- patcon 3mo ago
  Just think "neighborhood", no? This seems like splitting hairs... And to what end? to take a shot at EU supra-national structure? ("What, you don't ally to your country?" kinda shade.) -- Canadian
  - vlian2088 3mo ago
    more like an increasingly authoritative and retarded HoA.
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      ... which you have no obligation to follow the rules of
- hsuduebc2 3mo ago
  Maybe “your own city” would be a more precise metaphor than “your own house”. Your country is your house, but the EU is the city around it, with the roads, infrastructure, shared rules, market, security, and institutions that make the house function. The concept of a modern nation is also relatively new. It emerged as an identity for groups of people who were no longer defined mainly by the monarchs ruling over them. That identity replaced the king as the symbol of belonging. But now nationalism is often doing the opposite. Instead of freeing people from old power structures, it is holding Europe back. So yes, maybe it is not literally “your house”, but the point still stands. Burning down the city around your house is not exactly a smart move either.
  - logicchains 3mo ago
    >the EU is the city around it, with the roads, infrastructure, shared rules, market, security, and institutions that make the house function. If you measure "function" by the relative economic and military power of the country, then the EU has overwhelmingly degraded the function of its initial members compared to when they joined.
    - benjiro29 3mo ago
      > If you measure "function" by the relative economic and military power of the country, then the EU has overwhelmingly degraded the function of its initial members compared to when they joined. Very sure that when the EU was still in its infancy, we had only "west Europe" in arms, vs a USSR (aka all the eastern states and Russia). Now all those states are part of NATO and the EU. Instead of the border to the closest hostile nation (Russia) being barely 100km from here, its now over 1200km to the first contact point. That same Russia can barely deal with a Ukraine, that has some spare change backing from the EU. How is again at a war economy? Ukraine, sure, Russia, sure, EU ... nowp. We now have Northern members that used to be neutral or not part of NATO, that are now part of it. I feel like people love to misrepresent a lot of history. We have never been in a better position as a EU, vs what we used to be 40, 80, 100 years ago. Yea, we have a lot of buildup to do again, but lets be honest, i rather see buildup now with modern kit for the modern battles, then relying on outdated 1990's doctrine and weapons. And even that is still a slow process with transitioning to the new reality of drones, drones and drones. Do not forget that 90% of the kills are now by drones. People love to parrot those US talking point that often have no sense of history and our current EU reality in regards to security. While i admit, that we are still too reliant on US kit, even that is slowly changing. The EU moves slowly but it moves. Better then being some nations that are stuck in Imperialistic ways of thinking, like Russia.
hsuduebc2 3mo ago
Exactly. This is ridiculous behavior. Simple solutions for complex problems are usually the wrong ones. One griefer which promised prosperit fueled Brexit, which caused Britain visible stagnation and now he is a candidate for MP promising to fixing it all yet again. I need to repeat, that Simple solutions for complex problems usually do not work.
joe_mamba 3mo ago
>Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house just to get rid of flies. I don't like this comparison at all. Europe, the land that housed, fed and scarified my ancestors, is my house, not this supra-governmental corrupt bureaucratic institution called the EU that does not represent me nor speak in my name. Empires, monarchies, governments and all such man-made institutions like the EU get torn down all time, when they become too bloated, incompetent, corrupt and cronyistic and lose legitimacy in the eyes of the people. See all human history. Forests go through prescribed burns in order to be saved, for their own good, and so must political institutions. And when the rot is too big, it can't simply be "patched" anymore, it needs to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch with fresh new people, which in turn will get corrupted over time and get torn down, and so on, rinse and repeat because that's human nature. Ironically, the EU has achieved its goal of uniting all Europeans, as in they're all now united via hating what the EU has become and what it's doing.
- cassepipe 3mo ago
  Let's stop the blut and soil BS right here. I am all for european panationalism but don't pretend that Europe is "your house" where "your ancestors" were. You come from a very specific culture inside it which has its own specific language and traditions and that has spent most its history warring with its neighbours, sometimes people in the next village speaking a different version of your lanuage. My ancestors and your ancestor probably scarified each other, the land didn't Turns out unifying a lot of different countries that have different languages and interest is a hard problem and in order to satisfy everyone a little bureaucracy is the price to pay. You may find it too bloated, too slow or even too corrupt but burning it to the ground is a lunacy for people who entertain clean slate delusions: Whenever it happens, it is a catastrophy for everyone but a few opportunists. Europe is imperfect but it has rejected the idea of war outside of itself. I don't think any European citizen would go to war with their neighbour. Just that is an amazing achievement. Now it can stay an economic union and big powers can pick and choose how to manipulate each one of us for their own purposes or it can strive to be a political union and have a standing on the international stage. We're not there yet but we will, eventually, we just need to hang tight. Things take time.
polytely 3mo ago
Of course Americans want us to dismantle the EU, we are even weaker against US influence without it.
- janpmz 3mo ago
  Isn't the EU rather like a single point of failure?
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    No, every country remains sovereign. Hungary's previous regime ignored the EU for over a decade. Many countries are instituting border controls again despite the Schengen agreement.
    - master-lincoln 3mo ago
      These are the biggest issues in the EU. You make it sound like a positive thing. These countries erode the trust in law and exploit the subsidies.
      - inigyou 3mo ago
        You think the biggest issue in the EU is that it doesn't have enough power, parent thinks it has too much power.
retinaros 3mo ago
the eu has always been an instrument of american imperialism. leader like ursula was casted away of german politics for corruption and most of the other big names had ties to american companies like goldman sachs or’other financial institution. the eu is a prison for all of us. for a moment germany thought they could use it as an instrument to win and crush its biggest competitors (france and uk) but now they dont have an energy sector (lost thanks to their dear american friend bombing nordstream and foreign countries financing an anti nuclear narrative) and as such they now also lost the heart of their economy : their industry. the final nail in the coffin is spain opening the gates to millions of mens from less developed countries while major european economies have record youth unemployment. its a crime against what was not so long ago some of the greatest nations on earth. now were as citizen are living under a distopia of urss with the worst of capitalism combined with the worst of communism. mass surveillance, removal of all personal freedom (freedom of speech, right to own property and cars, right to inherit, right to have a nation for our people, harshnpunishment for any contestation’up to jail timz for memes while at the same time very lenient justice toward murderers, rapists and other criminals.) we gave away our right to exist and be nations and we did that without even a fight
- iknowstuff 3mo ago
  you seem to be from Russia. You do realize it's not in the EU right?
  - retinaros 3mo ago
    russia was indeed the ones who pushed germany to be reliant on their energy instead of going for nuclear. they funded green party to do that. and germany on their side then voted laws and pushed eu to remove nuclear from green energies list so that france wouldnt have an edge against germany shooting themselves in the foot
nickslaughter02 3mo ago
[flagged]
budududuroiu 3mo ago
The EU is beyond reform, this law targets exactly this: nascent political projects that threaten the status quo. I believe that the EU will cause so much strife that the long peace we've enjoyed on the continent will be brought to an end, not because of the EU, but because of the wedges drawn between pro-EU and EU-skeptic countries.
mdp2021 3mo ago
Look at this other piece in the frontpage: > Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera (allaboutcookies.org) the eu should never have been born. The above are its results - and just an example. How do we fix that disaster?
- pona-a 3mo ago
  And the US wanted to install a breathalyzer in every car a few years back. How is this supposed to prove anything?
  - mdp2021 3mo ago
    > [they] wanted Did they? That makes a good amount of difference, you know. Especially when "they" may be a vocal exception. > How is this supposed to prove anything Prove what. Nothing seems to be disproven. Edit: look, if you were trying to negate a "bad A" through an "(also) bad B", review and revise your logic. Which is important because that non-argument has been exploited to bend the political opinion of street-rubes to CEO-rubes for the past few years ("Bad Springfield hence [...] not bad Vernapool").
    - pona-a 3mo ago
      > Did they? Look, this was a headline I recalled seeing in the news. I do not live in the US, and honestly I'm kinda tired of hearing as much about your (?) politics. If I hadn't used the uncertainty qualifier, I would have been lying. That said, I believe it did pass almost unanimously, coming into effect in 2027 or something. The law in question required all cars come equipped with intoxication detection systems and refuse to start failing that check. > vocal exception I'm not from there, yet even I can tell the system is as broken as it could be. There are two parties funded by almost the same oligarchs, one advocating for open fascism and the other aimlessly laundering elite interests in nominal progressivism, while being more concerned with exterminating actual leftists within than tackling their opposition. You've steadily passed age verification in most major states, followed by a bipartisan federal bill. Your system does the same thing as EU-steadily laundering corporate agenda into legislation. At least in most of the EU, this shared disease hasn't progressed into the stage of eroding so much of workers rights and basic environmental protections. But with the recent populist currents, I can imagine the median voter will vote for their starvation if only to spite the brown people. > Bad Springfield hence not bad Vernapool The argument that started this thread was that the EU itself needs to be entirely abolished because it produces laws of this nature. If you apply that same standard, do you think cessation is what the US states should do too? Well, these same laws easily pass into state legislation too. All you'd be doing is delaying the inevitable, if you don't cut the problem at its root.
modo_mario 3mo ago
I was a big EU federalist but now it seems just a tool for liberal authoritarianism pushed by the established parties. >Europe is our home. At the same time parts of my country feel less and less like home if at all and those politicians really hate adressing it.

Insimwytim 3mo ago

Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house I'm not an expert, but isn't "your own house" should rather be your country in this analogy? It ought to be still there without some bureaucratic institution on top of it.

deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
patcon 3mo ago
Just think "neighborhood", no? This seems like splitting hairs... And to what end? to take a shot at EU supra-national structure? ("What, you don't ally to your country?" kinda shade.) -- Canadian
- vlian2088 3mo ago
  more like an increasingly authoritative and retarded HoA.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    ... which you have no obligation to follow the rules of
hsuduebc2 3mo ago
Maybe “your own city” would be a more precise metaphor than “your own house”. Your country is your house, but the EU is the city around it, with the roads, infrastructure, shared rules, market, security, and institutions that make the house function. The concept of a modern nation is also relatively new. It emerged as an identity for groups of people who were no longer defined mainly by the monarchs ruling over them. That identity replaced the king as the symbol of belonging. But now nationalism is often doing the opposite. Instead of freeing people from old power structures, it is holding Europe back. So yes, maybe it is not literally “your house”, but the point still stands. Burning down the city around your house is not exactly a smart move either.
- logicchains 3mo ago
  >the EU is the city around it, with the roads, infrastructure, shared rules, market, security, and institutions that make the house function. If you measure "function" by the relative economic and military power of the country, then the EU has overwhelmingly degraded the function of its initial members compared to when they joined.
  - benjiro29 3mo ago
    > If you measure "function" by the relative economic and military power of the country, then the EU has overwhelmingly degraded the function of its initial members compared to when they joined. Very sure that when the EU was still in its infancy, we had only "west Europe" in arms, vs a USSR (aka all the eastern states and Russia). Now all those states are part of NATO and the EU. Instead of the border to the closest hostile nation (Russia) being barely 100km from here, its now over 1200km to the first contact point. That same Russia can barely deal with a Ukraine, that has some spare change backing from the EU. How is again at a war economy? Ukraine, sure, Russia, sure, EU ... nowp. We now have Northern members that used to be neutral or not part of NATO, that are now part of it. I feel like people love to misrepresent a lot of history. We have never been in a better position as a EU, vs what we used to be 40, 80, 100 years ago. Yea, we have a lot of buildup to do again, but lets be honest, i rather see buildup now with modern kit for the modern battles, then relying on outdated 1990's doctrine and weapons. And even that is still a slow process with transitioning to the new reality of drones, drones and drones. Do not forget that 90% of the kills are now by drones. People love to parrot those US talking point that often have no sense of history and our current EU reality in regards to security. While i admit, that we are still too reliant on US kit, even that is slowly changing. The EU moves slowly but it moves. Better then being some nations that are stuck in Imperialistic ways of thinking, like Russia.

hsuduebc2 3mo ago

Exactly. This is ridiculous behavior. Simple solutions for complex problems are usually the wrong ones. One griefer which promised prosperit fueled Brexit, which caused Britain visible stagnation and now he is a candidate for MP promising to fixing it all yet again. I need to repeat, that Simple solutions for complex problems usually do not work.

joe_mamba 3mo ago

>Dismantling the EU is like burning down your own house just to get rid of flies. I don't like this comparison at all. Europe, the land that housed, fed and scarified my ancestors, is my house, not this supra-governmental corrupt bureaucratic institution called the EU that does not represent me nor speak in my name. Empires, monarchies, governments and all such man-made institutions like the EU get torn down all time, when they become too bloated, incompetent, corrupt and cronyistic and lose legitimacy in the eyes of the people. See all human history. Forests go through prescribed burns in order to be saved, for their own good, and so must political institutions. And when the rot is too big, it can't simply be "patched" anymore, it needs to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch with fresh new people, which in turn will get corrupted over time and get torn down, and so on, rinse and repeat because that's human nature. Ironically, the EU has achieved its goal of uniting all Europeans, as in they're all now united via hating what the EU has become and what it's doing.

cassepipe 3mo ago
Let's stop the blut and soil BS right here. I am all for european panationalism but don't pretend that Europe is "your house" where "your ancestors" were. You come from a very specific culture inside it which has its own specific language and traditions and that has spent most its history warring with its neighbours, sometimes people in the next village speaking a different version of your lanuage. My ancestors and your ancestor probably scarified each other, the land didn't Turns out unifying a lot of different countries that have different languages and interest is a hard problem and in order to satisfy everyone a little bureaucracy is the price to pay. You may find it too bloated, too slow or even too corrupt but burning it to the ground is a lunacy for people who entertain clean slate delusions: Whenever it happens, it is a catastrophy for everyone but a few opportunists. Europe is imperfect but it has rejected the idea of war outside of itself. I don't think any European citizen would go to war with their neighbour. Just that is an amazing achievement. Now it can stay an economic union and big powers can pick and choose how to manipulate each one of us for their own purposes or it can strive to be a political union and have a standing on the international stage. We're not there yet but we will, eventually, we just need to hang tight. Things take time.

polytely 3mo ago

Of course Americans want us to dismantle the EU, we are even weaker against US influence without it.

janpmz 3mo ago
Isn't the EU rather like a single point of failure?
- inigyou 3mo ago
  No, every country remains sovereign. Hungary's previous regime ignored the EU for over a decade. Many countries are instituting border controls again despite the Schengen agreement.
  - master-lincoln 3mo ago
    These are the biggest issues in the EU. You make it sound like a positive thing. These countries erode the trust in law and exploit the subsidies.
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      You think the biggest issue in the EU is that it doesn't have enough power, parent thinks it has too much power.

retinaros 3mo ago

the eu has always been an instrument of american imperialism. leader like ursula was casted away of german politics for corruption and most of the other big names had ties to american companies like goldman sachs or’other financial institution. the eu is a prison for all of us. for a moment germany thought they could use it as an instrument to win and crush its biggest competitors (france and uk) but now they dont have an energy sector (lost thanks to their dear american friend bombing nordstream and foreign countries financing an anti nuclear narrative) and as such they now also lost the heart of their economy : their industry. the final nail in the coffin is spain opening the gates to millions of mens from less developed countries while major european economies have record youth unemployment. its a crime against what was not so long ago some of the greatest nations on earth. now were as citizen are living under a distopia of urss with the worst of capitalism combined with the worst of communism. mass surveillance, removal of all personal freedom (freedom of speech, right to own property and cars, right to inherit, right to have a nation for our people, harshnpunishment for any contestation’up to jail timz for memes while at the same time very lenient justice toward murderers, rapists and other criminals.) we gave away our right to exist and be nations and we did that without even a fight

iknowstuff 3mo ago
you seem to be from Russia. You do realize it's not in the EU right?
- retinaros 3mo ago
  russia was indeed the ones who pushed germany to be reliant on their energy instead of going for nuclear. they funded green party to do that. and germany on their side then voted laws and pushed eu to remove nuclear from green energies list so that france wouldnt have an edge against germany shooting themselves in the foot

nickslaughter02 3mo ago

[flagged]

budududuroiu 3mo ago

The EU is beyond reform, this law targets exactly this: nascent political projects that threaten the status quo. I believe that the EU will cause so much strife that the long peace we've enjoyed on the continent will be brought to an end, not because of the EU, but because of the wedges drawn between pro-EU and EU-skeptic countries.

mdp2021 3mo ago

Look at this other piece in the frontpage: > Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera (allaboutcookies.org) the eu should never have been born. The above are its results - and just an example. How do we fix that disaster?

pona-a 3mo ago
And the US wanted to install a breathalyzer in every car a few years back. How is this supposed to prove anything?
- mdp2021 3mo ago
  > [they] wanted Did they? That makes a good amount of difference, you know. Especially when "they" may be a vocal exception. > How is this supposed to prove anything Prove what. Nothing seems to be disproven. Edit: look, if you were trying to negate a "bad A" through an "(also) bad B", review and revise your logic. Which is important because that non-argument has been exploited to bend the political opinion of street-rubes to CEO-rubes for the past few years ("Bad Springfield hence [...] not bad Vernapool").
  - pona-a 3mo ago
    > Did they? Look, this was a headline I recalled seeing in the news. I do not live in the US, and honestly I'm kinda tired of hearing as much about your (?) politics. If I hadn't used the uncertainty qualifier, I would have been lying. That said, I believe it did pass almost unanimously, coming into effect in 2027 or something. The law in question required all cars come equipped with intoxication detection systems and refuse to start failing that check. > vocal exception I'm not from there, yet even I can tell the system is as broken as it could be. There are two parties funded by almost the same oligarchs, one advocating for open fascism and the other aimlessly laundering elite interests in nominal progressivism, while being more concerned with exterminating actual leftists within than tackling their opposition. You've steadily passed age verification in most major states, followed by a bipartisan federal bill. Your system does the same thing as EU-steadily laundering corporate agenda into legislation. At least in most of the EU, this shared disease hasn't progressed into the stage of eroding so much of workers rights and basic environmental protections. But with the recent populist currents, I can imagine the median voter will vote for their starvation if only to spite the brown people. > Bad Springfield hence not bad Vernapool The argument that started this thread was that the EU itself needs to be entirely abolished because it produces laws of this nature. If you apply that same standard, do you think cessation is what the US states should do too? Well, these same laws easily pass into state legislation too. All you'd be doing is delaying the inevitable, if you don't cut the problem at its root.

modo_mario 3mo ago

I was a big EU federalist but now it seems just a tool for liberal authoritarianism pushed by the established parties. >Europe is our home. At the same time parts of my country feel less and less like home if at all and those politicians really hate adressing it.