4 ms·

It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps, but we can't do vice versa. OSM should change their

It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps, but we can't do vice versa. OSM should change their license to something like if you use our data, you have to make yours open as well.

GreyStache 3mo ago
Change that to definitely. I added a brand-new road on OSM and a week later it was on google maps.
- ygra 3mo ago
  Google can cheat a little, especially for new roads since they notice when someone is driving over it. When there was a redesign of an intersection near here, someone marked the road as completed in OSM maybe half an hour after it was opened (we have a few quite active mappers), and Google had it open about two hours later and I suspect no one changed the data directly.
  - ssl-3 3mo ago
    Waze definitely does this[1]. As a map editor, I can mark a road segment as closed and it will stay closed for as long as I say, unless reverted by another editor or traffic is observed moving through that closed segment (based on parameters that they set). This kind of cheating usually works extremely well, from my observation. Anyhow, Google owns Waze and data goes back and forth between there and Google Maps. They're like two heads of the same snake, so it's implicit that the same thing also works on Google Maps. [1]: https://www.waze.com/discuss/t/closures/374712#p-2273808-automatic-opening-of-a-closure-link-to-this-sectionuploadysu9jnxxhuzb7i4yapw7bpfkhkepng-8 https://www.waze.com/discuss/t/closures/374712#p-2273808-aut...
- plorg 3mo ago
  On the other hand, I've been trying to submit changes to Google for several new and vacated roads for over a year (having already updated OSM) and they are constantly rejected. I suspect it is much more that their updates are responsive to car traffic. The segments I'm submitting are or were low-traffic although they include a road that a local municipality has directed people to in official communication for overflow yard waste after some big, recent storms.
  - juliangmp 3mo ago
    I had a similar experience with Google Maps, I used to live in a place where the house on Google maps was located on the wrong street, like one parallel street off. I put in a few requests from time to time because deliveries were a huge pain, to no avail. I opened a thread on some Google forum or support place and then it was mentioned that I actually can't change that because only the city is allowed to... why I get the option in the app I don't fully understand. At some point it got fixed but I have no idea why. Of course it was a few months before I moved out
JacobKfromIRC 3mo ago
The license seems to already require this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/ Maybe I am misunderstanding the summary, but it says: "If you publicly use any adapted version of this database, or works produced from an adapted database, you must also offer that adapted database under the ODbL." <https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/>
- mips_avatar 3mo ago
  Yeah the problem is what's considered an adapted database. If it was strict it would mean apps like Alltrails (which is 90% openstreetmaps data) would need to list their trailmaps as open databases, but they don't.
  - cwillu 3mo ago
    The problem is that factual details aren't copyrightable in the first place, so no amount of licensing will prevent organizations with enough money to pay a lawyer from understanding this and using the data as they see fit. And on the flip side, those organizations can pay those same lawyers to write scary boilerplate to make it seem like their map data is “proprietary” and therefore “protected by copyright” even though it isn't.
    - bluGill 3mo ago
      Maps Traditionally have a few intentional errors because those are copyright, in turn meaning if one is found you can sue for copyright violations.
      - cwillu 3mo ago
        I know that's the common story, but I have never seen any actual court cases confirming that theory; certainly the recoverable damages from such copying such an error would be minuscule.
pteraspidomorph 3mo ago
> It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps If only. Maps are still super broken around where I live. I personally mapped everything in OSM (which thankfully is used by most third party services these days) a couple years ago, but Maps is still people's primary source for routing and traffic related stuff.
- cwillu 3mo ago
  Various driving/delivery apps ultimately use OSM data. Doordash and instacart both use it to various degrees via mapbox, for instasnce.
  - cube00 3mo ago
    As evil as they are, it's hearting to see the delivery platforms are embracing OSM when they could probably afford to just pay for Google's Maps API. It gives hope that Google/ESRI won't always be the dominant mapping platform, however OSM is still missing a lot of local businesses which the delivery platforms don't need as urgently as house numbers so there's less focus there.
    - patmorgan23 3mo ago
      Lyft even pays people to contribute to OSM
      - Aachen 3mo ago
        Many companies do. Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, TomTom, Über, Komoot, VKontakte; I see German, Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish local governments mentioned; Austrian emergency dispatch; USA school bus operator... Full list: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activities https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activi... It's more surprising at this point that Google isn't getting in on the fun, at least taking the good bits and calling their own data a 'separate layer' so they don't have to contribute anything back. (And of course no Chinese companies, since accurate maps are illegal there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...)
krzyk 3mo ago
If google does that, then they do a poor job at that. In Europe OSM is way more detailed and up to date than Google Maps.
ronnier 3mo ago
They probably do. I’m thankful for every contributor because each edit makes my Tesla that much better
pbmonster 3mo ago
> It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps No way they are doing this deliberately globally. My city has a lot of pedestrian stairs interconnecting roads, and not a single one is on GMaps. If you navigate on foot, it will send you on walks 2x-3x longer than necessary. OSMand and CoMaps reliably find the shortest way. And can tell you the pavement type, number of steps, stroller ramp and hand rail situation of every single one of those stairs. Google has a really hard time adding roads without frequent car traffic, I think.

GreyStache 3mo ago

Change that to definitely. I added a brand-new road on OSM and a week later it was on google maps.

ygra 3mo ago
Google can cheat a little, especially for new roads since they notice when someone is driving over it. When there was a redesign of an intersection near here, someone marked the road as completed in OSM maybe half an hour after it was opened (we have a few quite active mappers), and Google had it open about two hours later and I suspect no one changed the data directly.
- ssl-3 3mo ago
  Waze definitely does this[1]. As a map editor, I can mark a road segment as closed and it will stay closed for as long as I say, unless reverted by another editor or traffic is observed moving through that closed segment (based on parameters that they set). This kind of cheating usually works extremely well, from my observation. Anyhow, Google owns Waze and data goes back and forth between there and Google Maps. They're like two heads of the same snake, so it's implicit that the same thing also works on Google Maps. [1]: https://www.waze.com/discuss/t/closures/374712#p-2273808-automatic-opening-of-a-closure-link-to-this-sectionuploadysu9jnxxhuzb7i4yapw7bpfkhkepng-8 https://www.waze.com/discuss/t/closures/374712#p-2273808-aut...
plorg 3mo ago
On the other hand, I've been trying to submit changes to Google for several new and vacated roads for over a year (having already updated OSM) and they are constantly rejected. I suspect it is much more that their updates are responsive to car traffic. The segments I'm submitting are or were low-traffic although they include a road that a local municipality has directed people to in official communication for overflow yard waste after some big, recent storms.
- juliangmp 3mo ago
  I had a similar experience with Google Maps, I used to live in a place where the house on Google maps was located on the wrong street, like one parallel street off. I put in a few requests from time to time because deliveries were a huge pain, to no avail. I opened a thread on some Google forum or support place and then it was mentioned that I actually can't change that because only the city is allowed to... why I get the option in the app I don't fully understand. At some point it got fixed but I have no idea why. Of course it was a few months before I moved out

JacobKfromIRC 3mo ago

The license seems to already require this: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/ Maybe I am misunderstanding the summary, but it says: "If you publicly use any adapted version of this database, or works produced from an adapted database, you must also offer that adapted database under the ODbL." <https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/ https://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/>

mips_avatar 3mo ago
Yeah the problem is what's considered an adapted database. If it was strict it would mean apps like Alltrails (which is 90% openstreetmaps data) would need to list their trailmaps as open databases, but they don't.
- cwillu 3mo ago
  The problem is that factual details aren't copyrightable in the first place, so no amount of licensing will prevent organizations with enough money to pay a lawyer from understanding this and using the data as they see fit. And on the flip side, those organizations can pay those same lawyers to write scary boilerplate to make it seem like their map data is “proprietary” and therefore “protected by copyright” even though it isn't.
  - bluGill 3mo ago
    Maps Traditionally have a few intentional errors because those are copyright, in turn meaning if one is found you can sue for copyright violations.
    - cwillu 3mo ago
      I know that's the common story, but I have never seen any actual court cases confirming that theory; certainly the recoverable damages from such copying such an error would be minuscule.

pteraspidomorph 3mo ago

> It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps If only. Maps are still super broken around where I live. I personally mapped everything in OSM (which thankfully is used by most third party services these days) a couple years ago, but Maps is still people's primary source for routing and traffic related stuff.

cwillu 3mo ago
Various driving/delivery apps ultimately use OSM data. Doordash and instacart both use it to various degrees via mapbox, for instasnce.
- cube00 3mo ago
  As evil as they are, it's hearting to see the delivery platforms are embracing OSM when they could probably afford to just pay for Google's Maps API. It gives hope that Google/ESRI won't always be the dominant mapping platform, however OSM is still missing a lot of local businesses which the delivery platforms don't need as urgently as house numbers so there's less focus there.
  - patmorgan23 3mo ago
    Lyft even pays people to contribute to OSM
    - Aachen 3mo ago
      Many companies do. Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, Amazon, TomTom, Über, Komoot, VKontakte; I see German, Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish local governments mentioned; Austrian emergency dispatch; USA school bus operator... Full list: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activities https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Organised_Editing/Activi... It's more surprising at this point that Google isn't getting in on the fun, at least taking the good bits and calling their own data a 'separate layer' so they don't have to contribute anything back. (And of course no Chinese companies, since accurate maps are illegal there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...)

krzyk 3mo ago

If google does that, then they do a poor job at that. In Europe OSM is way more detailed and up to date than Google Maps.

ronnier 3mo ago

They probably do. I’m thankful for every contributor because each edit makes my Tesla that much better

pbmonster 3mo ago

> It sucks that Google is probably using OSM data to check what they are missing and adding it to their maps No way they are doing this deliberately globally. My city has a lot of pedestrian stairs interconnecting roads, and not a single one is on GMaps. If you navigate on foot, it will send you on walks 2x-3x longer than necessary. OSMand and CoMaps reliably find the shortest way. And can tell you the pavement type, number of steps, stroller ramp and hand rail situation of every single one of those stairs. Google has a really hard time adding roads without frequent car traffic, I think.