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> IMHO this mutual interdependence is actually a good thing. It stimulates maintaining peaceful relations and engaging in trade. We could use a little more of t

> IMHO this mutual interdependence is actually a good thing. It stimulates maintaining peaceful relations and engaging in trade. We could use a little more of that. Isolationism didn't lead to anything good last century either. I think interdependence is a good thing, but I think the EU is _reliant_ on the US militarily and economically and that's ... not great particularly when the US leadership is openly hostile toward Europe (and toward the US for that matter). I'm speaking as an American.

koe123 3mo ago
As it pertains to military, just wait a few years I think.
- InTheArena 3mo ago
  The last three times that Europe had a large independent military force(s), things didn't end so well for the world. International commerce and business and shared democratic norms are a fscking good things. We have lost the people who learned that the hard way, and they are being replaced with people who have never read a history book.
  - nullsanity 3mo ago
    [dead]
  - embedding-shape 3mo ago
    > The last three times that Europe had a large independent military force(s), things didn't end so well for the world. Name one country with a large military force that done more good than bad with it? Seems to come with the territory that if you have a large military force, you somehow need to use it for something as otherwise it falls into disrepair, and that "something" tends to be trying to spread your culture one way or another. Come to think of it, seems China is the only country so far (in modern times) that haven't abused their military to enforce their will on smaller countries, basically every other superpower been abusing their military to make the world worse.
    - jq-r 3mo ago
      > Come to think of it, seems China is the only country so far (in modern times) that haven't abused their military to enforce their will on smaller countries Philippines would disagree with this one.
      - embedding-shape 3mo ago
        Yeah, that's my bad, I later correctly used "superpower" rather than "country" but missed that on my first usage. Was talking about "the big bois countries" :)
- throwaway894345 3mo ago
  While I applaud the strides the EU is taking to decouple militarily, it's still a long ways away from replacing the security umbrella provided by the US military. The EU doesn't even have a single command and control structure (although NATO provides a lot of interoperability between European militaries). It's no knock on Europe's efforts--it's just that the dependency on US military was almost a century in the making--it's not going to be undone overnight. But Europe is moving in the right direction--I just hope Europe stays the course and continues to take it seriously.
  - embedding-shape 3mo ago
    > The EU doesn't even have a single command and control structure That's... how EU works, intentionally? It's a decentralized union more or less, we're still independent countries with our own laws and what not, each country have their own command and control structure for their own military, on purpose.
    - Terr_ 3mo ago
      They aren't talking about the EU per se getting a military command layer, they're talking about the problem faced by a group of sovereign entities which mostly overlaps with EU member states. Specifically, the problem of how those states can individually choose to plug their forces into a practiced system of military coordination. Today, they can do that with NATO, but if they want an alternative, it doesn't exist and it will be difficult to build.
- tick_tock_tick 3mo ago
  You mean decades; especially if they keep up waffling.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    This is funny because "waffen" is the German word for "weapons"
tonyhart7 3mo ago
what Europe option anyway ???? other than US another power that can fill up the space is China or are european saying china is better than US ????
- betorabinovich 3mo ago
  It's certainly easier to do business with countries that aren't governed by a psychotic moron that likes to threaten your cost equation on a weekly basis to enrich its cronies
  - DaSHacka 3mo ago
    ...and you're saying this as a point to why dealing with China is easier?
- input_sh 3mo ago
  Well for one thing, China wasn't adamant about annexing territory belonging to a European nation like half a year ago.
  - dijit 3mo ago
    their eyes are firmly on Africa. Not being able to stand on our own feet is going to be a major problem because of the implied soft power. It nerfs our ability to ever have a spine on any issue.
    - Root_Denied 3mo ago
      China has spent the last couple of decades making inroads into Africa to secure raw materials, not because they want to annex anything on the continent.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 3mo ago
    Renewed calls just today! Give us Greenland or we pull out of Europe entirely.
- 3mo ago

koe123 3mo ago

As it pertains to military, just wait a few years I think.

InTheArena 3mo ago
The last three times that Europe had a large independent military force(s), things didn't end so well for the world. International commerce and business and shared democratic norms are a fscking good things. We have lost the people who learned that the hard way, and they are being replaced with people who have never read a history book.
- nullsanity 3mo ago
  [dead]
- embedding-shape 3mo ago
  > The last three times that Europe had a large independent military force(s), things didn't end so well for the world. Name one country with a large military force that done more good than bad with it? Seems to come with the territory that if you have a large military force, you somehow need to use it for something as otherwise it falls into disrepair, and that "something" tends to be trying to spread your culture one way or another. Come to think of it, seems China is the only country so far (in modern times) that haven't abused their military to enforce their will on smaller countries, basically every other superpower been abusing their military to make the world worse.
  - jq-r 3mo ago
    > Come to think of it, seems China is the only country so far (in modern times) that haven't abused their military to enforce their will on smaller countries Philippines would disagree with this one.
    - embedding-shape 3mo ago
      Yeah, that's my bad, I later correctly used "superpower" rather than "country" but missed that on my first usage. Was talking about "the big bois countries" :)
throwaway894345 3mo ago
While I applaud the strides the EU is taking to decouple militarily, it's still a long ways away from replacing the security umbrella provided by the US military. The EU doesn't even have a single command and control structure (although NATO provides a lot of interoperability between European militaries). It's no knock on Europe's efforts--it's just that the dependency on US military was almost a century in the making--it's not going to be undone overnight. But Europe is moving in the right direction--I just hope Europe stays the course and continues to take it seriously.
- embedding-shape 3mo ago
  > The EU doesn't even have a single command and control structure That's... how EU works, intentionally? It's a decentralized union more or less, we're still independent countries with our own laws and what not, each country have their own command and control structure for their own military, on purpose.
  - Terr_ 3mo ago
    They aren't talking about the EU per se getting a military command layer, they're talking about the problem faced by a group of sovereign entities which mostly overlaps with EU member states. Specifically, the problem of how those states can individually choose to plug their forces into a practiced system of military coordination. Today, they can do that with NATO, but if they want an alternative, it doesn't exist and it will be difficult to build.
tick_tock_tick 3mo ago
You mean decades; especially if they keep up waffling.
- inigyou 3mo ago
  This is funny because "waffen" is the German word for "weapons"

tonyhart7 3mo ago

what Europe option anyway ???? other than US another power that can fill up the space is China or are european saying china is better than US ????

betorabinovich 3mo ago
It's certainly easier to do business with countries that aren't governed by a psychotic moron that likes to threaten your cost equation on a weekly basis to enrich its cronies
- DaSHacka 3mo ago
  ...and you're saying this as a point to why dealing with China is easier?
input_sh 3mo ago
Well for one thing, China wasn't adamant about annexing territory belonging to a European nation like half a year ago.
- dijit 3mo ago
  their eyes are firmly on Africa. Not being able to stand on our own feet is going to be a major problem because of the implied soft power. It nerfs our ability to ever have a spine on any issue.
  - Root_Denied 3mo ago
    China has spent the last couple of decades making inroads into Africa to secure raw materials, not because they want to annex anything on the continent.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 3mo ago
  Renewed calls just today! Give us Greenland or we pull out of Europe entirely.
3mo ago