3 ms·

For those of you pretending to have trouble understanding 'banned' in this context, it means essentially the same thing as when someone gets 'canceled'. People

For those of you pretending to have trouble understanding 'banned' in this context, it means essentially the same thing as when someone gets 'canceled'. People who are canceled are not literally thrown in prison and executed.

an0malous 3mo ago
I miss the days when words still had meaning
- throwaway27448 3mo ago
  Words have more meanings than ever.... but last century produced wittgenstein; perfectly clear communication was always a polite fiction.
  - an0malous 3mo ago
    > Words have more meanings than ever Right, that's the problem > but last century produced wittgenstein; I don't think a philosopher who died 80 years ago is driving the change in how words are used in the last 20 years. It has more to do with the Internet and the cultural forces driving people to use hyperbole or make things up to make money in the attention market. This article wouldn't be on HN if it was just about Dua Lipa starting a bookstore, they added "banned" so it would catch peoples attention even if that's basically a lie. > perfectly clear communication was always a polite fiction. The comment I replied to is trying to argue that it's ok to call books "banned" even if they're not banned, because it's like the term "cancelled" which at one point meant someone whose content was actually cancelled but I guess they're suggesting it doesn't mean that anymore either. I'm not arguing that words should have perfect meanings, that is obviously a strawman, but this article and comment thread are using words to mean the complete opposite of their common meaning.
    - throwaway27448 3mo ago
      > Right, that's the problem Is it a problem? I think it allows greater flexibility for humor and subtext than ever. It's the people who insist on contextualess interpretation that rain on the parade. > it's ok to call books "banned" even if they're not First of all, of course it's ok. Nobody is getting hurt. Second, the books are banned—just not where the bookstore is. I'm not sure how anyone could struggle to understand this. Anyway, what book is banned everywhere? Has any book in history really been banned to such an extent? Or do you really think Dua Lipa would be investing in a bookstore that would immediately be shut down? Being upset at this just seems like a waste of energy. In fact, I would go so far as to say that for the most part it's the people who do believe in canonical definitions that get hurt by thinking they communicate clearly, by allowing others who do have a more flexible understanding of semantics undermine and fool them. We should teach words as polysemous by default so as to ensure they're able to function in the modern world. Hell, a great deal of wordplay can only be enjoyed if you're able to hold multiple definitions in your head at once. For instance, "literally" notoriously connotes "figuratively".... sometimes. This is actually quite an old phenomenon that well predates the internet. But it allows ironic commentary on the speaker's perspectives that forces the audience to interpret the phrase in a broader context. There is certainly a role for formal, unambiguous speech—in technical communication, in legal briefs, in analysis more generally—but it's not hard to see why people enjoy straying far beyond that in service of fluid, natural, and concise communication.
      - jpfromlondon 3mo ago
        >I think it allows greater flexibility for humor and subtext than ever. It has more ambiguity because we had many similar words for similar things that are differential in some minor way. Now everything can mean anything, it is leaning more expressive with less precision, English's best quality is that it balances the precise and the expressive, the craft is gone and if you misunderstand what I've written because I've used the wrong words that's your fault.
        throwaway27448 3mo ago
        > Now everything can mean anything I don't think you're this unable to discern meaning. I have faith in you. > if you misunderstand what I've written because I've used the wrong words that's your fault. You could say the same thing about how you're reacting right now.
    - RossBencina 3mo ago
      > I don't think a philosopher who died 80 years ago is driving the change in how words are used in the last 20 years. The phenomenon is not restricted to this century. Orwell's book published in 1949 includes many prescient examples. Witgenstein's contribution, at a minimum, is that he named the paradigm, thus raising awareness, and perhaps leading to an increase in intentional engagement with these practices.
    - buellerbueller 3mo ago
      This usage of "banned" has been around for over a century, beginning in the USA when the USPS tried to interdict copies of Joyce's Ulysses. It further gained popularity when Tropic of Cancer and Lady Chatterly's Lover were challenged as obscenity in landmark 1950s-60s trials. The first Banned Books Week happened in 1982, sponsored by the American Library Association. However, yes, since 2021 there has been a big spike in the usage of the term "banned" books. Perhaps it was because around that time, there has been a massive push to challenge books (the ironically named "Moms for Liberty" though whose liberty they are protecting seems to be up for debate). 2023 saw >4,000 books challenged, whereas an average year between 2001-2020 saw ~275. Perhaps if people stopped trying to police the reading habits of others' children, people would be less apt to talk about so called "banned" books? I, for one, think that policing the reading habits of other people, and the micromanagement of libraries, is far more odious than the hyperbolic use of the word "banned." No one has to check out a book they don't want to.
- buellerbueller 3mo ago
  human language != computer languages and that's why the latter exists. if human language had the precision you are (futilely, ahistorically) pining for, then we could program with them.
xienze 3mo ago
Well, it does kind of matter. "Banned" has a specific meaning. If a book is "banned" and you're allowed to possess it or sell it, it's not really banned, now is it? The usage of the word, despite the reality of the situation, strongly implies "this is a book the government WON'T LET YOU READ!" Except, they do. A more accurate term might be "politically unfavorable", but that doesn't get people riled up. And, I'm just going to take a wild guess here, but this library is probably zeroing in on books that are politically unfavorable to conservative governments. I doubt we'll find the likes of Mein Kampf in there.
- Guthwine 3mo ago
  I agree that words do have a specific meaning, but the history of words changing their meaning is truly awful+! I was talking to this young girl++ in my neighborhood about words and slang - he said he had never considered that words could change their meaning, and that the dictionary was some kind of rule book. At first I thought maybe he was nice+++, but after considering it, he's young! Everyone learns this in time. Language is mutable and alive and ever-changing. That's just how it goes. +Used to mean 'inspiring awe' ++Used to mean 'young child (gender neutral)' +++Used to mean 'foolish' or 'ignorant'
- criddell 3mo ago
  When somebody says a book is banned, there's usually some context that provides details on the scope of the ban. For example, North Korea has banned most western books so my local Barnes and Nobles is pretty much a banned book store.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
dudul 3mo ago
The irony of discussing the "new meaning" of a word on a thread about books/bookstore. Then say "canceled".

an0malous 3mo ago

I miss the days when words still had meaning

throwaway27448 3mo ago
Words have more meanings than ever.... but last century produced wittgenstein; perfectly clear communication was always a polite fiction.
- an0malous 3mo ago
  > Words have more meanings than ever Right, that's the problem > but last century produced wittgenstein; I don't think a philosopher who died 80 years ago is driving the change in how words are used in the last 20 years. It has more to do with the Internet and the cultural forces driving people to use hyperbole or make things up to make money in the attention market. This article wouldn't be on HN if it was just about Dua Lipa starting a bookstore, they added "banned" so it would catch peoples attention even if that's basically a lie. > perfectly clear communication was always a polite fiction. The comment I replied to is trying to argue that it's ok to call books "banned" even if they're not banned, because it's like the term "cancelled" which at one point meant someone whose content was actually cancelled but I guess they're suggesting it doesn't mean that anymore either. I'm not arguing that words should have perfect meanings, that is obviously a strawman, but this article and comment thread are using words to mean the complete opposite of their common meaning.
  - throwaway27448 3mo ago
    > Right, that's the problem Is it a problem? I think it allows greater flexibility for humor and subtext than ever. It's the people who insist on contextualess interpretation that rain on the parade. > it's ok to call books "banned" even if they're not First of all, of course it's ok. Nobody is getting hurt. Second, the books are banned—just not where the bookstore is. I'm not sure how anyone could struggle to understand this. Anyway, what book is banned everywhere? Has any book in history really been banned to such an extent? Or do you really think Dua Lipa would be investing in a bookstore that would immediately be shut down? Being upset at this just seems like a waste of energy. In fact, I would go so far as to say that for the most part it's the people who do believe in canonical definitions that get hurt by thinking they communicate clearly, by allowing others who do have a more flexible understanding of semantics undermine and fool them. We should teach words as polysemous by default so as to ensure they're able to function in the modern world. Hell, a great deal of wordplay can only be enjoyed if you're able to hold multiple definitions in your head at once. For instance, "literally" notoriously connotes "figuratively".... sometimes. This is actually quite an old phenomenon that well predates the internet. But it allows ironic commentary on the speaker's perspectives that forces the audience to interpret the phrase in a broader context. There is certainly a role for formal, unambiguous speech—in technical communication, in legal briefs, in analysis more generally—but it's not hard to see why people enjoy straying far beyond that in service of fluid, natural, and concise communication.
    - jpfromlondon 3mo ago
      >I think it allows greater flexibility for humor and subtext than ever. It has more ambiguity because we had many similar words for similar things that are differential in some minor way. Now everything can mean anything, it is leaning more expressive with less precision, English's best quality is that it balances the precise and the expressive, the craft is gone and if you misunderstand what I've written because I've used the wrong words that's your fault.
      - throwaway27448 3mo ago
        > Now everything can mean anything I don't think you're this unable to discern meaning. I have faith in you. > if you misunderstand what I've written because I've used the wrong words that's your fault. You could say the same thing about how you're reacting right now.
  - RossBencina 3mo ago
    > I don't think a philosopher who died 80 years ago is driving the change in how words are used in the last 20 years. The phenomenon is not restricted to this century. Orwell's book published in 1949 includes many prescient examples. Witgenstein's contribution, at a minimum, is that he named the paradigm, thus raising awareness, and perhaps leading to an increase in intentional engagement with these practices.
  - buellerbueller 3mo ago
    This usage of "banned" has been around for over a century, beginning in the USA when the USPS tried to interdict copies of Joyce's Ulysses. It further gained popularity when Tropic of Cancer and Lady Chatterly's Lover were challenged as obscenity in landmark 1950s-60s trials. The first Banned Books Week happened in 1982, sponsored by the American Library Association. However, yes, since 2021 there has been a big spike in the usage of the term "banned" books. Perhaps it was because around that time, there has been a massive push to challenge books (the ironically named "Moms for Liberty" though whose liberty they are protecting seems to be up for debate). 2023 saw >4,000 books challenged, whereas an average year between 2001-2020 saw ~275. Perhaps if people stopped trying to police the reading habits of others' children, people would be less apt to talk about so called "banned" books? I, for one, think that policing the reading habits of other people, and the micromanagement of libraries, is far more odious than the hyperbolic use of the word "banned." No one has to check out a book they don't want to.
buellerbueller 3mo ago
human language != computer languages and that's why the latter exists. if human language had the precision you are (futilely, ahistorically) pining for, then we could program with them.

xienze 3mo ago

Well, it does kind of matter. "Banned" has a specific meaning. If a book is "banned" and you're allowed to possess it or sell it, it's not really banned, now is it? The usage of the word, despite the reality of the situation, strongly implies "this is a book the government WON'T LET YOU READ!" Except, they do. A more accurate term might be "politically unfavorable", but that doesn't get people riled up. And, I'm just going to take a wild guess here, but this library is probably zeroing in on books that are politically unfavorable to conservative governments. I doubt we'll find the likes of Mein Kampf in there.

Guthwine 3mo ago
I agree that words do have a specific meaning, but the history of words changing their meaning is truly awful+! I was talking to this young girl++ in my neighborhood about words and slang - he said he had never considered that words could change their meaning, and that the dictionary was some kind of rule book. At first I thought maybe he was nice+++, but after considering it, he's young! Everyone learns this in time. Language is mutable and alive and ever-changing. That's just how it goes. +Used to mean 'inspiring awe' ++Used to mean 'young child (gender neutral)' +++Used to mean 'foolish' or 'ignorant'
criddell 3mo ago
When somebody says a book is banned, there's usually some context that provides details on the scope of the ban. For example, North Korea has banned most western books so my local Barnes and Nobles is pretty much a banned book store.

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

dudul 3mo ago

The irony of discussing the "new meaning" of a word on a thread about books/bookstore. Then say "canceled".