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Infrastructure should not be (purely) profit driven. To improve profits for train operators, the simple option is to cut lines serving small and rural communiti

by Certhas 3mo ago

Infrastructure should not be (purely) profit driven. To improve profits for train operators, the simple option is to cut lines serving small and rural communities. The economics are much worse than serving large cities. Same for cell coverage and broadband internet. Most profitable is to just not cover a few percent of the population. There is a point where technology becomes foundational for participating in society. And then it needs to be regulated to be available to everyone.

groundzeros2015 3mo ago
> the simple option is to cut lines serving small and rural communities We don’t see this in practice to though. Three examples: 1. In the airline industry big airlines don’t go everywhere for this reasons but small local airlines fill the gap due to market opportunity. 2. Changes in technology enable big companies to operate more efficiently. See starlink. 3. Big companies know that ubiquity is important for their brand. In practice Amazon will deliver packages across the US.
- miltonlost 3mo ago
  You cut off the OP's sentence of that being examples for "Rail companies" and then added your own examples. Please be better at comprehesion and editing comments "In practice Amazon will deliver packages across the US." You know they use the Postal Service for last miles often? And the Postal Service is required by law to service far-flung places. So Amazon is only, in practice, delivering packages to those places due to USPS.
  - groundzeros2015 3mo ago
    > then added your own examples. Please be better at comprehesion and editing comments Did you miss the part where the conversation was about Ticketmaster and rails were used as an analogy for understanding the problem? > So Amazon is only, in practice, delivering packages to those places due to USPS. I don’t think that’s true as I can buy many things on Amazon which cannot be shipped via USPS.
- card_zero 3mo ago
  Meanwhile in Britain in the 1960s, this cost-cutting closure of local rail lines did happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts ... at a time when the trains and rail infrastructure had been publicly owned for about 15 years already. It doesn't dispel the incentive.
  - groundzeros2015 3mo ago
    I’m not arguing a rail has never been closed. I’m arguing that being a small difficult market doesn’t exclude you from being served by marketed forces. Did nobody ever operate rail to those cities again due to them being rural?
    - card_zero 3mo ago
      Rural cities? Come again? What was demolished remained demolished, yes. Unclear on your point. Oh I see (thanks to that edit). I mean, I agree with you. This is just the additional amusing detail that government-run services are still subject to a sort of dulled and homogenous version of market forces, which can be worse for small local concerns because it's less responsive. Though, admittedly, a giant corporation can simulate government very well, and can be just as crap.
      - groundzeros2015 3mo ago
        It’s confirmed in the opening summary: > A few of these routes have since reopened. Some short sections have been preserved as heritage railways, while others have been incorporated into the National Cycle Network or used for road schemes > Some, such as the bulk of the Midland Metro network around Birmingham and Wolverhampton, have since been incorporated into light rail lines. Furthermore, the transformation to other transportation forms suggests this event also coincides with changing technology.
        Certhas 3mo ago
        There are many more places that were never reconnected.
- derektank 3mo ago
  >In the airline industry big airlines don’t go everywhere for this reasons but small local airlines fill the gap due to market opportunity. You’re not wrong, but small and rural airports would not be able to maintain even these routes without EAS (essential air services) subsidies
- christina97 3mo ago
  The airline industry gets huge subsidies in most countries to operate more rural/less profitable routes. Most of the passenger airports in the US for instance would not be viable without subsidies (most flights go to a few profitable hubs, but the long tail or airports forms the majority by count). Amazon delivers everywhere because USPS subsidizes package delivery to unprofitable areas. You don’t get next day prime except in a relatively small proportion of the country (by area).
  - groundzeros2015 3mo ago
    > You don’t get next day prime except in a relatively small proportion of the country I agree that the cost or level of service differs (it literally costs more to serve you).
- Certhas 3mo ago
  What is your point? Sometimes it works due to other factors so we don't need regulation? Beyond the very real closures of unprofitable rail lines that is always happening or threatening (including in state owned rail companies) your examples don't really measure up either: Local airports are typically subsidized. So the infrastructure aspect is not market driven. Eventually getting starlink means it was fine to not have fast internet for a couple of decades? We still don't have good mobile internet on many train lines in Germany. In Poland it's fine. The difference? Poland mandated that companies bidding for 4G meet certain coverage goals. Market forces have absolutely failed to actually get reasonable mobile internet to everyone.
account42 3mo ago
Yes, we need to update what is considered essential infrastructure in the digital age.

by Certhas 3mo ago

groundzeros2015 3mo ago

> the simple option is to cut lines serving small and rural communities We don’t see this in practice to though. Three examples: 1. In the airline industry big airlines don’t go everywhere for this reasons but small local airlines fill the gap due to market opportunity. 2. Changes in technology enable big companies to operate more efficiently. See starlink. 3. Big companies know that ubiquity is important for their brand. In practice Amazon will deliver packages across the US.

miltonlost 3mo ago
You cut off the OP's sentence of that being examples for "Rail companies" and then added your own examples. Please be better at comprehesion and editing comments "In practice Amazon will deliver packages across the US." You know they use the Postal Service for last miles often? And the Postal Service is required by law to service far-flung places. So Amazon is only, in practice, delivering packages to those places due to USPS.
- groundzeros2015 3mo ago
  > then added your own examples. Please be better at comprehesion and editing comments Did you miss the part where the conversation was about Ticketmaster and rails were used as an analogy for understanding the problem? > So Amazon is only, in practice, delivering packages to those places due to USPS. I don’t think that’s true as I can buy many things on Amazon which cannot be shipped via USPS.
card_zero 3mo ago
Meanwhile in Britain in the 1960s, this cost-cutting closure of local rail lines did happen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts ... at a time when the trains and rail infrastructure had been publicly owned for about 15 years already. It doesn't dispel the incentive.
- groundzeros2015 3mo ago
  I’m not arguing a rail has never been closed. I’m arguing that being a small difficult market doesn’t exclude you from being served by marketed forces. Did nobody ever operate rail to those cities again due to them being rural?
  - card_zero 3mo ago
    Rural cities? Come again? What was demolished remained demolished, yes. Unclear on your point. Oh I see (thanks to that edit). I mean, I agree with you. This is just the additional amusing detail that government-run services are still subject to a sort of dulled and homogenous version of market forces, which can be worse for small local concerns because it's less responsive. Though, admittedly, a giant corporation can simulate government very well, and can be just as crap.
    - groundzeros2015 3mo ago
      It’s confirmed in the opening summary: > A few of these routes have since reopened. Some short sections have been preserved as heritage railways, while others have been incorporated into the National Cycle Network or used for road schemes > Some, such as the bulk of the Midland Metro network around Birmingham and Wolverhampton, have since been incorporated into light rail lines. Furthermore, the transformation to other transportation forms suggests this event also coincides with changing technology.
      - Certhas 3mo ago
        There are many more places that were never reconnected.
derektank 3mo ago
>In the airline industry big airlines don’t go everywhere for this reasons but small local airlines fill the gap due to market opportunity. You’re not wrong, but small and rural airports would not be able to maintain even these routes without EAS (essential air services) subsidies
christina97 3mo ago
The airline industry gets huge subsidies in most countries to operate more rural/less profitable routes. Most of the passenger airports in the US for instance would not be viable without subsidies (most flights go to a few profitable hubs, but the long tail or airports forms the majority by count). Amazon delivers everywhere because USPS subsidizes package delivery to unprofitable areas. You don’t get next day prime except in a relatively small proportion of the country (by area).
- groundzeros2015 3mo ago
  > You don’t get next day prime except in a relatively small proportion of the country I agree that the cost or level of service differs (it literally costs more to serve you).
Certhas 3mo ago
What is your point? Sometimes it works due to other factors so we don't need regulation? Beyond the very real closures of unprofitable rail lines that is always happening or threatening (including in state owned rail companies) your examples don't really measure up either: Local airports are typically subsidized. So the infrastructure aspect is not market driven. Eventually getting starlink means it was fine to not have fast internet for a couple of decades? We still don't have good mobile internet on many train lines in Germany. In Poland it's fine. The difference? Poland mandated that companies bidding for 4G meet certain coverage goals. Market forces have absolutely failed to actually get reasonable mobile internet to everyone.

account42 3mo ago

Yes, we need to update what is considered essential infrastructure in the digital age.