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The central bank, council, and commission have to get thoroughly investigated. The amount of questionable decisions coming from those three in the recent (15) y

by m132 3mo ago

The central bank, council, and commission have to get thoroughly investigated. The amount of questionable decisions coming from those three in the recent (15) years is extremely unsettling. The parliament and courts are practically the only institutions preventing things from hitting the fan at this point, and struggling to do so, it seems.

kingleopold 3mo ago
they dont investigate themselves, I hope you understand those details some day.
- m132 3mo ago
  They do, albeit it's a slow process: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-secret-group-chat-zelensky-trump-b3002834.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-secret-gr... Ironically, those are two separate cases of one high-profile EU politician (in fact, the very head of the same parliament that pushes for mass scanning of private messages) BOTH involving secret text messages that the mentioned politician refuses to reveal.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
junto 3mo ago
I’m convinced of widespread corruption here. We need to follow the money. Who is funding and pushing this agenda to blanket spy on all Europeans? I guess my question is rhetorical.
- joe_mamba 3mo ago
  >Who is funding and pushing this agenda to blanket spy on all Europeans? Why are we ignoring the other side of the transaction? The side responsible for taking the money. Giving bribes for lobbying is bad, but that would not be an issue if those found taking the bribes would be guillotined or hanged.
- cryo32 3mo ago
  I don’t think it’s a conspiracy or corruption. It’s just design by committee bureaucracy. It always fails into that state.
  - everyone 3mo ago
    And no committee, no bureaucracy, no regulations, just let corporations do whatever they want, works great right!? It's not like it immediately collapses to despotism as the slightly bigger fish gobbles up everything in a positive feedback process. With an egalitarian government, corruption is a problem, its bad, its something we try to fight and there are mechanisms to do so. Having no government is just giving up and going straight to 100% corruption.
    - cryo32 3mo ago
      I’m not suggesting that at all. I am simply suggesting that bureaucracies have their own specific failure models. I am very pro regulation.
      - everyone 3mo ago
        Ok, theres defo a lot of idiots on HN and in USA who disagree with you. Still, kinda weird to complain about bureaucracy and regulations in this context cus its the only solution to these problems of egality and corruption which humanity has been struggling with ever since the dawn of civilisation. Tho, It's kind of a solved problem too. We should all just try to be like Denmark, they at the top or near the top of practially every metric. Happiness, corruption index, Gini, Quality of life, healthcare, education, carbon. They have a massive powerful bureaucracy, lots of strong regulation, extremely high taxes, low corruption. The solution to any eco-geo-political issue is just "be more like Denmark". Once everyone gets to that level we can think about further improvement.
        Ray20 3mo ago
        > We should all just try to be like Denmark Wait, but doesn't Denmark have the strictest immigration policies in the entire EU? > they at the top or near the top of practially every metric. Happiness, corruption index, Gini, Quality of life, healthcare, education, carbon. I don't understand. Are you suggesting deporting all migrants to improve the statistics to Denmark's level? But that's impossible in our legal system. We've been actively importing culturally incompatible foreigners for decades now, and many already have citizenship. You can't just strip people of their citizenship in an attempt to improve the statistics.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- sunshine-o 3mo ago
  > I’m convinced of widespread corruption here. I might not be corruption, it might be worse. I was told by Brussels insiders a few decades ago the Commission people are not really corruptible. They are guaranteed a very comfortable life and the sanctions are harsh. That might have change, I don't know. What I was explained is the system is designed for lobbying. The main input is by the lobbies, not the people. Most of us assume the EU is designed like the US system or individual countries like Germany, Italy or France but it is not. The power of the Parliament is very limited, but we see here that little power has become too much of an inconvenience for the people in power. For anyone daring to look into the boring design of that thing will come to the conclusion it is absolutely not democratic.
  - greensh 3mo ago
    Also the democratic systems like Germany are not known for their pro people / worker law decisions, the opposite actually in the last couple of years. This Democracy does not equal "what people want". It's a system designed to make people feel like they have the power for change. Knowing that, many people just vote to stop the far-right party from gaining power. The EU similarly is working as designed. It's a symbiosis between State and Capital and in hard times it has to regulate peoples rights in order to maintain stability. Or in this case open the door to stop anti-state/EU propaganda. I'm not against Democracy, just want to lay out it's limitations as it is applied.
joe_mamba 3mo ago
>The central bank, council, and commission have to get thoroughly investigated. By WHO?! They are THE (unelected) ruling elite. Who's gonna prosecute them?
- tokai 3mo ago
  OLAF I would assume.
- surgical_fire 3mo ago
  They are not unelected. The EU Council is made up of the head of government of each member state. They are all elected. The commissioners are picked by the heads of state (elected) and the EU parliament (also elected). This does not absolve them from wrongdoing, but you should understand where your complaints should be directed at.
  - joe_mamba 3mo ago
    >They are not unelected. After how many layers does the democratic part get watered down and is just members of the elite picking other elites? Role | Chosen by | Direct citizen vote? -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------- Commission President | European Council proposes, European Parliament elects| No (indirect via EP) European Council President | European Council (27 heads of state) | No European Parliament President| MEPs elect from among themselves | No (indirect via EP) ECB President | European Council, after consulting Parliament | No
    - surgical_fire 3mo ago
      I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him. By your own ridiculous standards, I don't live in a democracy. I fact, any paliamentarism would not be democratic based on that.
theodric 3mo ago
The government will investigate the government and find that the government did nothing wrong. A subsequent government review of the government's investigation of the government will find no wrongdoing on the part of the government. Ain't democracy grand?
- ipaddr 3mo ago
  Then blame Russia. Rinse and repeat.
zrn900 3mo ago
> recent (15) years Not really - all of these have been happening in the past 5-6 years, since the surprisingly London-linked von Leyen and her cadres somehow ended up at the helm. So it's not a surprise that whatever law the UK passes has been carried over to the Eu recently - the social media ban, digital ids, chat control and everything.

by m132 3mo ago

kingleopold 3mo ago

they dont investigate themselves, I hope you understand those details some day.

m132 3mo ago
They do, albeit it's a slow process: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-secret-group-chat-zelensky-trump-b3002834.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-secret-gr... Ironically, those are two separate cases of one high-profile EU politician (in fact, the very head of the same parliament that pushes for mass scanning of private messages) BOTH involving secret text messages that the mentioned politician refuses to reveal.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]

junto 3mo ago

I’m convinced of widespread corruption here. We need to follow the money. Who is funding and pushing this agenda to blanket spy on all Europeans? I guess my question is rhetorical.

joe_mamba 3mo ago
>Who is funding and pushing this agenda to blanket spy on all Europeans? Why are we ignoring the other side of the transaction? The side responsible for taking the money. Giving bribes for lobbying is bad, but that would not be an issue if those found taking the bribes would be guillotined or hanged.
cryo32 3mo ago
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy or corruption. It’s just design by committee bureaucracy. It always fails into that state.
- everyone 3mo ago
  And no committee, no bureaucracy, no regulations, just let corporations do whatever they want, works great right!? It's not like it immediately collapses to despotism as the slightly bigger fish gobbles up everything in a positive feedback process. With an egalitarian government, corruption is a problem, its bad, its something we try to fight and there are mechanisms to do so. Having no government is just giving up and going straight to 100% corruption.
  - cryo32 3mo ago
    I’m not suggesting that at all. I am simply suggesting that bureaucracies have their own specific failure models. I am very pro regulation.
    - everyone 3mo ago
      Ok, theres defo a lot of idiots on HN and in USA who disagree with you. Still, kinda weird to complain about bureaucracy and regulations in this context cus its the only solution to these problems of egality and corruption which humanity has been struggling with ever since the dawn of civilisation. Tho, It's kind of a solved problem too. We should all just try to be like Denmark, they at the top or near the top of practially every metric. Happiness, corruption index, Gini, Quality of life, healthcare, education, carbon. They have a massive powerful bureaucracy, lots of strong regulation, extremely high taxes, low corruption. The solution to any eco-geo-political issue is just "be more like Denmark". Once everyone gets to that level we can think about further improvement.
      - Ray20 3mo ago
        > We should all just try to be like Denmark Wait, but doesn't Denmark have the strictest immigration policies in the entire EU? > they at the top or near the top of practially every metric. Happiness, corruption index, Gini, Quality of life, healthcare, education, carbon. I don't understand. Are you suggesting deporting all migrants to improve the statistics to Denmark's level? But that's impossible in our legal system. We've been actively importing culturally incompatible foreigners for decades now, and many already have citizenship. You can't just strip people of their citizenship in an attempt to improve the statistics.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
sunshine-o 3mo ago
> I’m convinced of widespread corruption here. I might not be corruption, it might be worse. I was told by Brussels insiders a few decades ago the Commission people are not really corruptible. They are guaranteed a very comfortable life and the sanctions are harsh. That might have change, I don't know. What I was explained is the system is designed for lobbying. The main input is by the lobbies, not the people. Most of us assume the EU is designed like the US system or individual countries like Germany, Italy or France but it is not. The power of the Parliament is very limited, but we see here that little power has become too much of an inconvenience for the people in power. For anyone daring to look into the boring design of that thing will come to the conclusion it is absolutely not democratic.
- greensh 3mo ago
  Also the democratic systems like Germany are not known for their pro people / worker law decisions, the opposite actually in the last couple of years. This Democracy does not equal "what people want". It's a system designed to make people feel like they have the power for change. Knowing that, many people just vote to stop the far-right party from gaining power. The EU similarly is working as designed. It's a symbiosis between State and Capital and in hard times it has to regulate peoples rights in order to maintain stability. Or in this case open the door to stop anti-state/EU propaganda. I'm not against Democracy, just want to lay out it's limitations as it is applied.

joe_mamba 3mo ago

>The central bank, council, and commission have to get thoroughly investigated. By WHO?! They are THE (unelected) ruling elite. Who's gonna prosecute them?

tokai 3mo ago
OLAF I would assume.
surgical_fire 3mo ago
They are not unelected. The EU Council is made up of the head of government of each member state. They are all elected. The commissioners are picked by the heads of state (elected) and the EU parliament (also elected). This does not absolve them from wrongdoing, but you should understand where your complaints should be directed at.
- joe_mamba 3mo ago
  >They are not unelected. After how many layers does the democratic part get watered down and is just members of the elite picking other elites? Role | Chosen by | Direct citizen vote? -----------------------------+------------------------------------------------------+---------------------------- Commission President | European Council proposes, European Parliament elects| No (indirect via EP) European Council President | European Council (27 heads of state) | No European Parliament President| MEPs elect from among themselves | No (indirect via EP) ECB President | European Council, after consulting Parliament | No
  - surgical_fire 3mo ago
    I live in a country where the prime minister is picked by the parliament. I don't directly vote for him. By your own ridiculous standards, I don't live in a democracy. I fact, any paliamentarism would not be democratic based on that.

theodric 3mo ago

The government will investigate the government and find that the government did nothing wrong. A subsequent government review of the government's investigation of the government will find no wrongdoing on the part of the government. Ain't democracy grand?

ipaddr 3mo ago
Then blame Russia. Rinse and repeat.

zrn900 3mo ago

> recent (15) years Not really - all of these have been happening in the past 5-6 years, since the surprisingly London-linked von Leyen and her cadres somehow ended up at the helm. So it's not a surprise that whatever law the UK passes has been carried over to the Eu recently - the social media ban, digital ids, chat control and everything.