4 ms·

I wish software apps had "tape-out rules" the way that computer chips do. Basically, when you design a computer chip, a program reviews the design and compares

by Taek 3mo ago

I wish software apps had "tape-out rules" the way that computer chips do. Basically, when you design a computer chip, a program reviews the design and compares it against something like 300 pages of rules with stuff like "wires of X metal and Y metal can't be within Z distance of each other". We could make something similar for UX. Just a bunch of design pattern constraints that throw flags if you try to ship something with well established UX warts.

Retric 3mo ago
There’s effectively no universal list of UX warts people agree with. The Flat UX fad was objectively terrible on just about every metric I was taught, but people were actively pushing for such designs.
- selestify 3mo ago
  Why was that? What causes such fads? Why did everyone go along with it?
  - hypfer 3mo ago
    Speaking entirely out of my ass here: FOMO for sure is one of the driving factors. "We cannot risk looking outdated". So weak management, probably. But also talent availability I suppose. If there's a new trend, the pool of people you can hire include many that are in on that trend. UI frameworks too, probably. The modern thing™ does the modern thing™ and you do want to be on the modern thing, because you fear that only that receives security fixes or whatever.
    - darkwater 3mo ago
      If UIs today still looked exactly the same as Windows 2.0 or System 7 or CDE people will be bored to death. Aesthetics come and go and come back, it's part of how humanity worked for a few centuries already.
      - hypfer 3mo ago
        Do I need to be entertained by my butter knife, mop or screwdriver? I really don't think that "keeping people entertained" is a sensible goal within the context of building software as tools and not software-adjacent Art. Which is not to say that I would not want a great and polished experience, but that is not equivalent to "being entertained". ___ It would be nice if not everything one interacts with would try to get some sort of emotion out of me. Bring back being bored.
      - xorcist 3mo ago
        Why do people say that? I am not bored by my Braun alarm clock, neither by my Singer sewing machine or my De Buyer cookware. Why would I be bored by well executed digital desktop designs such as BeOS, AmigaOS or even Windows 2000?
      - Telaneo 3mo ago
        For some of us, the OS isn't a fashion statement, but rather a tool which is to be used to achieve other goals. It shifting around and changing its look is in fact a downside in that context. I don't think I know any non-tech people who like things changing about. Some tech people like that (I don't), but for the non-techy, it's just another thing they have to relearn for no good reason.
      - allarm 3mo ago
        > people will be bored to death As opposed to what? Be entertained by all the bells and whistles of modern operating systems that have practically unusable user interfaces?
  - zuminator 3mo ago
    Make-work. Managers needing to justify their promotions with a new way of doing things. Whole teams are given a reason to stay employed. OS and device obsolescence is achieved. A win all around, save for the consumer.
- chopin 3mo ago
  But there are things like consistency which one can check for. And should.
- xigoi 3mo ago
  What’s wrong with flat UIs? Skeuomorphic designs have served their purpose of helping people get used to computers, but now that is no longer necessary.
  - hypfer 3mo ago
    [flagged]
    - xigoi 3mo ago
      I’m being serious. I find skeuomorphic UIs to be too visually overwhelming compared to flat UIs.
      - hypfer 3mo ago
        That is a valid opinion to hold, however, the question of "what is wrong with X? Y is outdated and over" is a) a different statement from "I prefer X" and b) pretty low effort, trivially to Google (or ask AI) and generally a bit on the ignorant side A better reply would not just have said what it said but contained actual wonder about the topic. Like this, it's just indistinguishable from engagement bait.
        benj111 3mo ago
        I think you're being overly hostile. The parents question seems reasonable to my non designy mind.
        hypfer 3mo ago
        Yes in a vacuum. No on the Internet. Especially not on the sea-lion infested HR-world Internet, in which trolling has evolved to exploit good faith directly. ___ In fact, "being overly hostile" is exactly how you probe to see whether your suspicions are correct. Sea lioning exploits the gap between what would be a real human thing to do and what still passes as what a real human would do. So to get useful data, you need to modulate parameters so that people end up outside of that gap window. Essentially you're probing for genuine Human-ness by creating a context in which the bad faith action space is no longer overlapping with the genuine human action space. This works, because genuine humans have this amazing ability to reconcile and actually genuinely resolve misunderstandings. Something that is fundamentally impossible for bad faith actors. (This should not be understood as "just be overly hostile" because simply being a dick doesn't provide any data at all.)
- inigyou 3mo ago
  I bet people had the same concerns with the transition from Windows 3.1's flat UI (only basic shapes were used) to the pseudo-3D effects of Windows 95. Although in 3.1 it was easy to tell what was interactable, despite being flat. I attribute this to the use of standardized components almost everywhere.
  - Retric 3mo ago
    3.1 wasn’t a flat UI as the shading represented light coming from the top left on a 3D button, windows 2 used a flat design. https://www.custompc.com/wp-content/sites/custompc/2023/06/Windows-31-Multimedia-Drivers.jpg https://www.custompc.com/wp-content/sites/custompc/2023/06/W...

by Taek 3mo ago

Retric 3mo ago

There’s effectively no universal list of UX warts people agree with. The Flat UX fad was objectively terrible on just about every metric I was taught, but people were actively pushing for such designs.

selestify 3mo ago
Why was that? What causes such fads? Why did everyone go along with it?
- hypfer 3mo ago
  Speaking entirely out of my ass here: FOMO for sure is one of the driving factors. "We cannot risk looking outdated". So weak management, probably. But also talent availability I suppose. If there's a new trend, the pool of people you can hire include many that are in on that trend. UI frameworks too, probably. The modern thing™ does the modern thing™ and you do want to be on the modern thing, because you fear that only that receives security fixes or whatever.
  - darkwater 3mo ago
    If UIs today still looked exactly the same as Windows 2.0 or System 7 or CDE people will be bored to death. Aesthetics come and go and come back, it's part of how humanity worked for a few centuries already.
    - hypfer 3mo ago
      Do I need to be entertained by my butter knife, mop or screwdriver? I really don't think that "keeping people entertained" is a sensible goal within the context of building software as tools and not software-adjacent Art. Which is not to say that I would not want a great and polished experience, but that is not equivalent to "being entertained". ___ It would be nice if not everything one interacts with would try to get some sort of emotion out of me. Bring back being bored.
    - xorcist 3mo ago
      Why do people say that? I am not bored by my Braun alarm clock, neither by my Singer sewing machine or my De Buyer cookware. Why would I be bored by well executed digital desktop designs such as BeOS, AmigaOS or even Windows 2000?
    - Telaneo 3mo ago
      For some of us, the OS isn't a fashion statement, but rather a tool which is to be used to achieve other goals. It shifting around and changing its look is in fact a downside in that context. I don't think I know any non-tech people who like things changing about. Some tech people like that (I don't), but for the non-techy, it's just another thing they have to relearn for no good reason.
    - allarm 3mo ago
      > people will be bored to death As opposed to what? Be entertained by all the bells and whistles of modern operating systems that have practically unusable user interfaces?
- zuminator 3mo ago
  Make-work. Managers needing to justify their promotions with a new way of doing things. Whole teams are given a reason to stay employed. OS and device obsolescence is achieved. A win all around, save for the consumer.
chopin 3mo ago
But there are things like consistency which one can check for. And should.
xigoi 3mo ago
What’s wrong with flat UIs? Skeuomorphic designs have served their purpose of helping people get used to computers, but now that is no longer necessary.
- hypfer 3mo ago
  [flagged]
  - xigoi 3mo ago
    I’m being serious. I find skeuomorphic UIs to be too visually overwhelming compared to flat UIs.
    - hypfer 3mo ago
      That is a valid opinion to hold, however, the question of "what is wrong with X? Y is outdated and over" is a) a different statement from "I prefer X" and b) pretty low effort, trivially to Google (or ask AI) and generally a bit on the ignorant side A better reply would not just have said what it said but contained actual wonder about the topic. Like this, it's just indistinguishable from engagement bait.
      - benj111 3mo ago
        I think you're being overly hostile. The parents question seems reasonable to my non designy mind.
        hypfer 3mo ago
        Yes in a vacuum. No on the Internet. Especially not on the sea-lion infested HR-world Internet, in which trolling has evolved to exploit good faith directly. ___ In fact, "being overly hostile" is exactly how you probe to see whether your suspicions are correct. Sea lioning exploits the gap between what would be a real human thing to do and what still passes as what a real human would do. So to get useful data, you need to modulate parameters so that people end up outside of that gap window. Essentially you're probing for genuine Human-ness by creating a context in which the bad faith action space is no longer overlapping with the genuine human action space. This works, because genuine humans have this amazing ability to reconcile and actually genuinely resolve misunderstandings. Something that is fundamentally impossible for bad faith actors. (This should not be understood as "just be overly hostile" because simply being a dick doesn't provide any data at all.)
inigyou 3mo ago
I bet people had the same concerns with the transition from Windows 3.1's flat UI (only basic shapes were used) to the pseudo-3D effects of Windows 95. Although in 3.1 it was easy to tell what was interactable, despite being flat. I attribute this to the use of standardized components almost everywhere.
- Retric 3mo ago
  3.1 wasn’t a flat UI as the shading represented light coming from the top left on a 3D button, windows 2 used a flat design. https://www.custompc.com/wp-content/sites/custompc/2023/06/Windows-31-Multimedia-Drivers.jpg https://www.custompc.com/wp-content/sites/custompc/2023/06/W...