6 ms·

- i swear to god it has been 3 years since LLMs came out - i still have no idea what people are running for more than 5 mins - if you are sitting and writing

- i swear to god it has been 3 years since LLMs came out - i still have no idea what people are running for more than 5 mins - if you are sitting and writing 20000 page requirement documents for your next project and having agentic AI agents create the whole damn project from scratch, you are doing it all wrong - you ll end up eroding all your skills that translate requirements to code and worse you are dependent on these so called couple of frontier labs - in about 5-10 years you are going to see absolutely horrible effects of this LLM stuff at scale when most engineers wont be able to write a script tag in html without an LLM - mark my words

jdjdkrjdjjdj 4mo ago
[flagged]
- vivzkestrel 4mo ago
  - wrong comparison - ever heard the word called threshold? there is always a threshold for everything in this universe - when you say i dont need to manually do math anymore because i use a calculator, the threshold for offloading your thinking is very very low - when you say i dont need assembly language anymore because i learnt python, once again the threshold for offloading your thinking to an external source is very very slow because you are still thinking how that program works in python - but now you are saying here is a document that describes how the system works and let the agent generate the code - you are not thinking at all here are you? - even if you were to claim that writing requirement documents is a form of thought, you are still offloading the parts of your brain that were capable of translating requirement documents to code - i can still add and subtract 6 digit numbers effortlessly and rapidly without a calculator because i stopped using one long time back - can you say the same about the current generation of engineers 10 yrs from now?
  - jdjdkrjdjjdj 4mo ago
    It was a yes or no question. You didn't answer it.
    - jdjdkrjdjjdj 4mo ago
      Look my point here is not to troll. My point here is to make you think. I learnt assembly and I never want to do it again, I learnt to code in many languages (compiled and interpreted) and you know what, there has not been an issue i found that required me to dig into the assembly of a compiled language (there are edge cases if there was a compiler bug, but I have not seen them myself). Now the change from assembly to compiled languages was a step change. The same is true now. What was once hard is now easy. And again we must adapt. For you I think your identity has been tied up in being good at what you do ... I was the same... The issue is now, that we need to find something harder to fill our minds... Finally, I want to remind you that at one point in our history a computer was a job. I think programmer/software engineer is going the same way. In 10 years I hope we are not doing the same mundane crap as what we were .. There are so many other interesting things we could be filling our brains with!!!
      - wonnage 4mo ago
        You created a throwaway to “not troll” and post the same three tired tropes every tokenmaxxing vibe coder trots out
        simianwords 4mo ago
        They are right though. The entire history of human civilisation involves a thing called “specialisation”. The primary reason we were able to prosper as humans is because we all dont have to know how to procure our food. Did humanity lose the skills for making food as people specialised? No. same thing with memory management - as Java became popular, should the concern have been towards losing skills on memory management? That’s stupid. LLMs don’t allow you (yet) to not understand the code completely. But it allows you to understand less and less directionality. We are getting there. I don’t read all code anymore, just high level design. This kind of performative concern over skill atrophy is annoying.
        wonnage 4mo ago
        It's telling that the proponents of vibe coding are the same people who think memory management is no longer a concern with Java
- disgruntledphd2 4mo ago
  I actually ended up learning a little assembly (Knuth's new one MMIX) and it's actually been a really useful skill, as it gives me a (lot) more sympathy for the machine.
- customguy 4mo ago
  Apples and oranges, since there is not determinism. That this argument gets trotted out so often is part of the dumbing down IMO.
  - simianwords 4mo ago
    Non determinism doesn’t discount something from still being useful. Companies outsource projects to consultancies all the time. Imagine you wanted to rebrand your logo - you hire a freelance guy to make it. He’s non deterministic. Does this stop you from hiring him? Why or why not?
    - customguy 4mo ago
      Would you call him or her "the next step in the evolution of the brush" or something like that? Would you call an assistant who reads from books to or for you the "next level of literacy"? Does objecting to such statements -- because they're false and insulting the intelligence of the reader on the surface, and outright sinister in their long term implications -- mean I am "anti" either of these or other things? No x3. It also doesn't mean that I think if you have taste, even maybe some artistic skill, you will instantly lose it all when you hire that one person for that one logo, and so on. It just means what it says, that this comparison is nonsense. I don't have to justify myself for recognizing that, it should be the other way around if anything.
      - simianwords 4mo ago
        I don't know what this has to do with non determinism.
        customguy 4mo ago
        I simply mean same input, same output. A tool you can learn. A screwdriver or a jet airplane vs. having to ask someone else to fasten a screw or fly you somewhere. Sure, you also can't just fly a modern fighter jet "by yourself", as in, build one, fully understand it, and operate it. For starters, you need a whole support setup and other people on the ground. Same for a modern computers. But there is not necessarily any black box part anywhere in any of those systems, that does this thing today and the opposite tomorrow, for the same input. That is the difference, it's very fundamental and very simple, and the question why people don't see or pretend to not see or refuse to see it is of utmost importance.

jdjdkrjdjjdj 4mo ago

[flagged]

vivzkestrel 4mo ago
- wrong comparison - ever heard the word called threshold? there is always a threshold for everything in this universe - when you say i dont need to manually do math anymore because i use a calculator, the threshold for offloading your thinking is very very low - when you say i dont need assembly language anymore because i learnt python, once again the threshold for offloading your thinking to an external source is very very slow because you are still thinking how that program works in python - but now you are saying here is a document that describes how the system works and let the agent generate the code - you are not thinking at all here are you? - even if you were to claim that writing requirement documents is a form of thought, you are still offloading the parts of your brain that were capable of translating requirement documents to code - i can still add and subtract 6 digit numbers effortlessly and rapidly without a calculator because i stopped using one long time back - can you say the same about the current generation of engineers 10 yrs from now?
- jdjdkrjdjjdj 4mo ago
  It was a yes or no question. You didn't answer it.
  - jdjdkrjdjjdj 4mo ago
    Look my point here is not to troll. My point here is to make you think. I learnt assembly and I never want to do it again, I learnt to code in many languages (compiled and interpreted) and you know what, there has not been an issue i found that required me to dig into the assembly of a compiled language (there are edge cases if there was a compiler bug, but I have not seen them myself). Now the change from assembly to compiled languages was a step change. The same is true now. What was once hard is now easy. And again we must adapt. For you I think your identity has been tied up in being good at what you do ... I was the same... The issue is now, that we need to find something harder to fill our minds... Finally, I want to remind you that at one point in our history a computer was a job. I think programmer/software engineer is going the same way. In 10 years I hope we are not doing the same mundane crap as what we were .. There are so many other interesting things we could be filling our brains with!!!
    - wonnage 4mo ago
      You created a throwaway to “not troll” and post the same three tired tropes every tokenmaxxing vibe coder trots out
      - simianwords 4mo ago
        They are right though. The entire history of human civilisation involves a thing called “specialisation”. The primary reason we were able to prosper as humans is because we all dont have to know how to procure our food. Did humanity lose the skills for making food as people specialised? No. same thing with memory management - as Java became popular, should the concern have been towards losing skills on memory management? That’s stupid. LLMs don’t allow you (yet) to not understand the code completely. But it allows you to understand less and less directionality. We are getting there. I don’t read all code anymore, just high level design. This kind of performative concern over skill atrophy is annoying.
        wonnage 4mo ago
        It's telling that the proponents of vibe coding are the same people who think memory management is no longer a concern with Java
disgruntledphd2 4mo ago
I actually ended up learning a little assembly (Knuth's new one MMIX) and it's actually been a really useful skill, as it gives me a (lot) more sympathy for the machine.
customguy 4mo ago
Apples and oranges, since there is not determinism. That this argument gets trotted out so often is part of the dumbing down IMO.
- simianwords 4mo ago
  Non determinism doesn’t discount something from still being useful. Companies outsource projects to consultancies all the time. Imagine you wanted to rebrand your logo - you hire a freelance guy to make it. He’s non deterministic. Does this stop you from hiring him? Why or why not?
  - customguy 4mo ago
    Would you call him or her "the next step in the evolution of the brush" or something like that? Would you call an assistant who reads from books to or for you the "next level of literacy"? Does objecting to such statements -- because they're false and insulting the intelligence of the reader on the surface, and outright sinister in their long term implications -- mean I am "anti" either of these or other things? No x3. It also doesn't mean that I think if you have taste, even maybe some artistic skill, you will instantly lose it all when you hire that one person for that one logo, and so on. It just means what it says, that this comparison is nonsense. I don't have to justify myself for recognizing that, it should be the other way around if anything.
    - simianwords 4mo ago
      I don't know what this has to do with non determinism.
      - customguy 4mo ago
        I simply mean same input, same output. A tool you can learn. A screwdriver or a jet airplane vs. having to ask someone else to fasten a screw or fly you somewhere. Sure, you also can't just fly a modern fighter jet "by yourself", as in, build one, fully understand it, and operate it. For starters, you need a whole support setup and other people on the ground. Same for a modern computers. But there is not necessarily any black box part anywhere in any of those systems, that does this thing today and the opposite tomorrow, for the same input. That is the difference, it's very fundamental and very simple, and the question why people don't see or pretend to not see or refuse to see it is of utmost importance.