4 ms·

Hanami 3.0: In Full Bloom

102 points by PuercoPop 3mo ago

itsdesmond 3mo ago
Hanami is quite nice. I haven’t had the opportunity to use it in anger but I have had a crush on it for a while now. I really do hope ROM-rb, the not-orm Hanami uses, gets some development love as a consequence of this more formal merger. It’s a rad tool with enough rough edges that I had to switch away from it when launching a product a few years ago.
- cllns_ruby 3mo ago
  Definitely on the roadmap! I've also run into some rough edges with Rom and we want to fix those all up in a new version. We were just prioritizing Hanami 3 for the medium term, but hopefully we can focus efforts on Rom soon.
xswhiskey 3mo ago
It'd be nice to see some benchmarks to compare the before vs after on the perf gains in the Faster by default heading. Love the work though; having beautifully crafted options like Hanami around is a joy.
- cllns_ruby 3mo ago
  Completely agree! I did most of this work and I wanted to add before-and-after benchmarking but I got busy. I have an in-progress (private for now) implementation of the Medium clone RealWorld [1] project. I want to make that public with some benchmarks, then write up a modern implementation in Rails so we can compare performance. It will also help people compare our code side-by-side, to translate concepts they know from Rails into our approach in Hanami. [1]: https://github.com/realworld-apps/realworld https://github.com/realworld-apps/realworld
paozac 3mo ago
I'm happy someone's challenging the Rails almost-monoculture in the Ruby ecosystem, but Hanami doesn't seem to bring much to the table. Is there anything in this release that Rails hasn't had for years?
- itsdesmond 3mo ago
  What Hanami brings is an intentional and well-reasoned architecture that supports building maintainable applications. It has taste.
  - choilive 3mo ago
    That statement means nothing. You could say the exact same thing about Rails and have an equally defensible position. What about its architecture makes it better?
    - itsdesmond 3mo ago
      You could not.
      - throwatdem12311 3mo ago
        “Nuh uh” Isn’t a good rebuttal. How about some examples comparing where a solution in Hanami is “tasteful” while the same solution in Rails is “not tasteful”?
  - jatora 3mo ago
    What? This doesnt mean anything
    - itsdesmond 3mo ago
      This says more bout you than me.
      - jatora 3mo ago
m_m_carvalho 3mo ago
[flagged]
pclowes 3mo ago
I have loosely followed Hanami for years but never used it or heard of it used in a large codebase. I still don't quite understand what it does all that differently from Rails? There are plenty of comments that are along the lines of > "Hanami brings is an intentional and well-reasoned architecture that supports building maintainable applications. It has taste" (posted below) But concretely what does that mean? Their docs call out ways to avoid common rails anti-patterns and I agree with most of their opinions but you don't _have_ to write bad code in rails just because a lot of others have. Having seen Rails deprecations at multiple large well known tech cos I appreciate the sentiment of an "architecture that grows with you" but I would say the driver behind those migrations wasn't so much the framework as the extreme flexibility of the code and what that produces with thousands of developers over 10+ years. I don't see how any architecture of Hanami prevents that.
- cllns_ruby 3mo ago
  Hanami core team-member here :) We re-did our homepage recently, and we should make these things clearer. They're legitimate concerns and questions. We agree you don't have to write bad code in Rails, and we don't pretend that we can prevent bad code in Hanami. Instead we give application builders the tools to architect their applications in the way they desire. Really what we're doing is building an *option* for building Ruby apps that may speak better to some people. If you're completely happy with Rails then there's no reason to change. Still, you may learn something that'll help you build Rails apps by seeing how we do things. Additionally, it's completely modular: you can pull parts of Hanami into a Rails app. The most popular one people pull into Rails apps is dry-validation [1] Some concrete differences: - We have small, simple API's. Rails core classes have hundreds of methods for convenience, not to mention dozens of core extensions (a.k.a. monkey patches) to base Ruby classes. We prefer small, narrowly focused classes over large ones with many responsibilities. - We have a dependency injection framework dry-system [2] included by default. This lets you write `include Deps["repos.article_repo"] to get an automatically instantiated (and now memoized!) `Repos::ArticleRepo.new` within your class. This makes dependencies trivial to stub out, and it also declares your dependencies in a single place, instead of littering constants throughout your code. - We have sub-applications called Slices. Similar to Rails Engines but well... good, since they're a first-class concept that we encourage. Importantly, they're independently deployable. You can export and import components across slices, too. We can't tell you how to slice up your application, but we give you the tools to decide for yourself. [1]: https://hanakai.org/learn/dry/dry-validation https://hanakai.org/learn/dry/dry-validation [2]: https://hanakai.org/learn/dry/dry-system https://hanakai.org/learn/dry/dry-system
swe_dima 3mo ago
many years ago when Hanami was just getting popular I remember doing benchmarks against Rails when it comes to SQL and was unpleasantly surprised when Rails' ActiveRecord ended up being much faster, despite "speed" being advertised as one of the advantages :-(
- nine_k 3mo ago
  Is this still the case? I was able to find only one fresh comparison, and in it they show approximate parity, with Hanami being slightly faster. https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&f=hanami,rails&order_by=level64 https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&f=...
- cllns_ruby 3mo ago
  Hanami's DB layer was completely rewritten for Hanami 2 (based on Rom, and we've since merged teams), so you should try doing these again! Rom has some other advantages, like not needing a 1-to-1 mapping between tables/columns to models/attributes. For example, you could have a `users` table that maps to Profile and Account structs. Profile could include a `bio` whereas Account version could have the email, ensuring data doesn't leak beyond what's needed. They're two different use-cases for the same data, so should be modeled separately. This also lets you work with DB's where you don't control the schema (owned by other teams or legacy DB's): you can map the data into the structure you need for your app, instead of carrying around irrelevant attributes.
JustSkyfall 3mo ago
Big congrats on the release! I have been using Rails 8 for the past few months on a work project, but the Hanakai ecosystem looks really, really interesting. My one question would be whether or not Hanakai supports Inertia or Svelte views - we've been moving away from ERB recently, which has made it much easier to write interactive code due to the ecosystem, and I'd rather not throw that DX away!
- cllns_ruby 3mo ago
  Thanks! Hanami doesn't have any specific Inertia or Svelte specific integrations, but our view layer (and assets layer) is very flexible so it's certainly possible. It's worth investigating. If you try it out, let us know what you learn on our forum https://discourse.hanakai.org/ https://discourse.hanakai.org/
poszlem 3mo ago
I've used Hanami in exactly one production codebase (but it was a huge one). I fully expect to hear the chorus of "skill issue" TM type of comments and honestly, I won't even argue with that. But that app was hands down one of the messiest, most overengineered pile of hot garbage I've ever laid eyes on, and I can't shake the feeling that at least SOME of the blame lands on the framework itself, for nudging you toward a design where you drown in an explosion of tiny classes that do nothing but hide the actual behaviour from you.
- cllns_ruby 3mo ago
  Sorry to hear about that. We definitely can't protect developers from themselves. Over-engineering is definitely a risk to be aware of and guarded against. We provide powerful tools that can help your codebase, but they can also be misused. I'm confident you've also ran into large messy Rails apps too :)
- shoqr 3mo ago
  I had the complete opposite experience. When I was working at a software house, we had a client with a Hanami app (version 1). It was one of the best-engineered apps I’ve worked on - much better than 90% of the Rails apps we were working with at the time. The only thing I missed was better Dry.rb documentation. Hanami follows very good design patterns, useful for bigger applications. You may not see the value immediately with simple 5 minute blog app but over time, when the app grows, the abstraction layers will pay off.
gverrilla 3mo ago
Great web design.
rahil627 3mo ago
wow, ai told me this was for enterprise-size apps, "symfony of the ruby world" (dependency injection, data mapping..), to which i nearly puked, and avoided since.. it's really interesting to see people try to design things in a clearer way (explicit, modular, functional/immutable, less cpu indirection/execution, etc.) in ruby. I'm new to this language, but i think it's cool that for one big framework go all in on the implicit object function magicks (rails) and another go in the opposite direction: explicit, functional, no magicks (hanami). Ruby is nutty. Reminds me of people abusing ast macro magicks of haxe to do anything. (i myself am starting with roda to have the freedom to design my own spaghetti from near scratch.. and it's perfect for me!!) i'm glad it's built from little composable gems (unlike rails). I'll def check out the dry-rb stuff for some ideas. :) Ruby is so cool.. often leads people to make over-engineered, "clean" design solutions, but it's so easy to read and learn from, so modular, i feel i can quickly make the choice/decision to add a tiny abstraction lib or more likely DIY something even more simple, leading to near zero deps. <3 ruby!

102 points by PuercoPop 3mo ago

Hanami is quite nice. I haven’t had the opportunity to use it in anger but I have had a crush on it for a while now. I really do hope ROM-rb, the not-orm Hanami uses, gets some development love as a consequence of this more formal merger. It’s a rad tool with enough rough edges that I had to switch away from it when launching a product a few years ago.

cllns_ruby 3mo ago
Definitely on the roadmap! I've also run into some rough edges with Rom and we want to fix those all up in a new version. We were just prioritizing Hanami 3 for the medium term, but hopefully we can focus efforts on Rom soon.

xswhiskey 3mo ago

It'd be nice to see some benchmarks to compare the before vs after on the perf gains in the Faster by default heading. Love the work though; having beautifully crafted options like Hanami around is a joy.

cllns_ruby 3mo ago
Completely agree! I did most of this work and I wanted to add before-and-after benchmarking but I got busy. I have an in-progress (private for now) implementation of the Medium clone RealWorld [1] project. I want to make that public with some benchmarks, then write up a modern implementation in Rails so we can compare performance. It will also help people compare our code side-by-side, to translate concepts they know from Rails into our approach in Hanami. [1]: https://github.com/realworld-apps/realworld https://github.com/realworld-apps/realworld

paozac 3mo ago

I'm happy someone's challenging the Rails almost-monoculture in the Ruby ecosystem, but Hanami doesn't seem to bring much to the table. Is there anything in this release that Rails hasn't had for years?

itsdesmond 3mo ago
What Hanami brings is an intentional and well-reasoned architecture that supports building maintainable applications. It has taste.
- choilive 3mo ago
  That statement means nothing. You could say the exact same thing about Rails and have an equally defensible position. What about its architecture makes it better?
  - itsdesmond 3mo ago
    You could not.
    - throwatdem12311 3mo ago
      “Nuh uh” Isn’t a good rebuttal. How about some examples comparing where a solution in Hanami is “tasteful” while the same solution in Rails is “not tasteful”?
- jatora 3mo ago
  What? This doesnt mean anything
  - itsdesmond 3mo ago
    This says more bout you than me.
    - jatora 3mo ago

m_m_carvalho 3mo ago

[flagged]

pclowes 3mo ago

I have loosely followed Hanami for years but never used it or heard of it used in a large codebase. I still don't quite understand what it does all that differently from Rails? There are plenty of comments that are along the lines of > "Hanami brings is an intentional and well-reasoned architecture that supports building maintainable applications. It has taste" (posted below) But concretely what does that mean? Their docs call out ways to avoid common rails anti-patterns and I agree with most of their opinions but you don't _have_ to write bad code in rails just because a lot of others have. Having seen Rails deprecations at multiple large well known tech cos I appreciate the sentiment of an "architecture that grows with you" but I would say the driver behind those migrations wasn't so much the framework as the extreme flexibility of the code and what that produces with thousands of developers over 10+ years. I don't see how any architecture of Hanami prevents that.

cllns_ruby 3mo ago
Hanami core team-member here :) We re-did our homepage recently, and we should make these things clearer. They're legitimate concerns and questions. We agree you don't have to write bad code in Rails, and we don't pretend that we can prevent bad code in Hanami. Instead we give application builders the tools to architect their applications in the way they desire. Really what we're doing is building an *option* for building Ruby apps that may speak better to some people. If you're completely happy with Rails then there's no reason to change. Still, you may learn something that'll help you build Rails apps by seeing how we do things. Additionally, it's completely modular: you can pull parts of Hanami into a Rails app. The most popular one people pull into Rails apps is dry-validation [1] Some concrete differences: - We have small, simple API's. Rails core classes have hundreds of methods for convenience, not to mention dozens of core extensions (a.k.a. monkey patches) to base Ruby classes. We prefer small, narrowly focused classes over large ones with many responsibilities. - We have a dependency injection framework dry-system [2] included by default. This lets you write `include Deps["repos.article_repo"] to get an automatically instantiated (and now memoized!) `Repos::ArticleRepo.new` within your class. This makes dependencies trivial to stub out, and it also declares your dependencies in a single place, instead of littering constants throughout your code. - We have sub-applications called Slices. Similar to Rails Engines but well... good, since they're a first-class concept that we encourage. Importantly, they're independently deployable. You can export and import components across slices, too. We can't tell you how to slice up your application, but we give you the tools to decide for yourself. [1]: https://hanakai.org/learn/dry/dry-validation https://hanakai.org/learn/dry/dry-validation [2]: https://hanakai.org/learn/dry/dry-system https://hanakai.org/learn/dry/dry-system

swe_dima 3mo ago

many years ago when Hanami was just getting popular I remember doing benchmarks against Rails when it comes to SQL and was unpleasantly surprised when Rails' ActiveRecord ended up being much faster, despite "speed" being advertised as one of the advantages :-(

nine_k 3mo ago
Is this still the case? I was able to find only one fresh comparison, and in it they show approximate parity, with Hanami being slightly faster. https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&f=hanami,rails&order_by=level64 https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/result?asc=0&f=...
cllns_ruby 3mo ago
Hanami's DB layer was completely rewritten for Hanami 2 (based on Rom, and we've since merged teams), so you should try doing these again! Rom has some other advantages, like not needing a 1-to-1 mapping between tables/columns to models/attributes. For example, you could have a `users` table that maps to Profile and Account structs. Profile could include a `bio` whereas Account version could have the email, ensuring data doesn't leak beyond what's needed. They're two different use-cases for the same data, so should be modeled separately. This also lets you work with DB's where you don't control the schema (owned by other teams or legacy DB's): you can map the data into the structure you need for your app, instead of carrying around irrelevant attributes.

JustSkyfall 3mo ago

Big congrats on the release! I have been using Rails 8 for the past few months on a work project, but the Hanakai ecosystem looks really, really interesting. My one question would be whether or not Hanakai supports Inertia or Svelte views - we've been moving away from ERB recently, which has made it much easier to write interactive code due to the ecosystem, and I'd rather not throw that DX away!

cllns_ruby 3mo ago
Thanks! Hanami doesn't have any specific Inertia or Svelte specific integrations, but our view layer (and assets layer) is very flexible so it's certainly possible. It's worth investigating. If you try it out, let us know what you learn on our forum https://discourse.hanakai.org/ https://discourse.hanakai.org/

poszlem 3mo ago

I've used Hanami in exactly one production codebase (but it was a huge one). I fully expect to hear the chorus of "skill issue" TM type of comments and honestly, I won't even argue with that. But that app was hands down one of the messiest, most overengineered pile of hot garbage I've ever laid eyes on, and I can't shake the feeling that at least SOME of the blame lands on the framework itself, for nudging you toward a design where you drown in an explosion of tiny classes that do nothing but hide the actual behaviour from you.

cllns_ruby 3mo ago
Sorry to hear about that. We definitely can't protect developers from themselves. Over-engineering is definitely a risk to be aware of and guarded against. We provide powerful tools that can help your codebase, but they can also be misused. I'm confident you've also ran into large messy Rails apps too :)
shoqr 3mo ago
I had the complete opposite experience. When I was working at a software house, we had a client with a Hanami app (version 1). It was one of the best-engineered apps I’ve worked on - much better than 90% of the Rails apps we were working with at the time. The only thing I missed was better Dry.rb documentation. Hanami follows very good design patterns, useful for bigger applications. You may not see the value immediately with simple 5 minute blog app but over time, when the app grows, the abstraction layers will pay off.

gverrilla 3mo ago

Great web design.

rahil627 3mo ago

wow, ai told me this was for enterprise-size apps, "symfony of the ruby world" (dependency injection, data mapping..), to which i nearly puked, and avoided since.. it's really interesting to see people try to design things in a clearer way (explicit, modular, functional/immutable, less cpu indirection/execution, etc.) in ruby. I'm new to this language, but i think it's cool that for one big framework go all in on the implicit object function magicks (rails) and another go in the opposite direction: explicit, functional, no magicks (hanami). Ruby is nutty. Reminds me of people abusing ast macro magicks of haxe to do anything. (i myself am starting with roda to have the freedom to design my own spaghetti from near scratch.. and it's perfect for me!!) i'm glad it's built from little composable gems (unlike rails). I'll def check out the dry-rb stuff for some ideas. :) Ruby is so cool.. often leads people to make over-engineered, "clean" design solutions, but it's so easy to read and learn from, so modular, i feel i can quickly make the choice/decision to add a tiny abstraction lib or more likely DIY something even more simple, leading to near zero deps. <3 ruby!