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I absolutely agree. My last and current employer both offer unlimited vacation. For whatever psychological reason, I find myself taking less vacation than I did

I absolutely agree. My last and current employer both offer unlimited vacation. For whatever psychological reason, I find myself taking less vacation than I did when I was _earning_ it at my McJob for the rate of 6.33 hours every month. If you are such an employer, please consider setting a realistic expectation of what is an appropriate amount of time-off. If there really is no limit, then please consider more intensive training with regard to your company's culture .

shykes 14y ago
We had a similar debate at dotCloud when the team discussed the appropriate amount of vacation. Unlimited was very tempting, but in the end we decided against it because 1) it's ambiguous and offers little guarantees, 2) it makes a lot of people suspicious ("Like AT&T unlimited?") and 3) it doesn't force people to take vacation. Number 3 was the worst. Passionate people will burn themselves out if you don't setup some sort of "vacation monitoring". We liked the idea of making that explicit: lots of vacation, and rules that force you to use them regularly. In the end we went for 2+1 weeks on the first year, and 3+2 weeks after that.
- famousactress 14y ago
  Does 3+2 mean "3 required, optionally take 2 additional"?
  - shykes 14y ago
    Sorry, forgot to explain. 3+2 means "3 weeks accrued over the year and usable anytime, 2 weeks of company-wide break (specifically the weeks of thanksgiving and christmas)". The decision to do a company-wide break probably deserves a thread of its own. The short version is that it works great.
    - robbles 14y ago
      Wait, how do you have a week-long "company-wide" break? Does that mean nobody is working for a whole week?
      - shykes 14y ago
        Yes, that's what it means, with the exception of support and on-call rotation. Let's face it: american companies are not productive over thanksgiving and christmas. They just pretend to be. By making these 2 weeks vacation, we simply embrace reality.
    - LordIllidan 14y ago
      What about support?
      - w3pm 14y ago
        Not everyone works on products requiring 24/7 support. We also take a mandatory 1.5 week company break around the December holidays -- it's fantastic!
      - shykes 14y ago
        Good question, there are special arrangements for support and 24/7 on-call rotation (eg. if you have to work during the company break you get vacation days). It's also very easy to trade on-call days with colleagues, and other ad-hoc arrangements. I'm not 100% certain this would work in a bigger company where people think of it as "just a job". But in a small team where everybody is passionate and eager to make it successful, it works great.
        LordIllidan 14y ago
        Thanks for the answer - I thought it would be something like this. Taking 2 weeks off during the holiday period is a great thing to do!
    - famousactress 14y ago
      So... First year folks are 2+1. So does that mean on the week or Thanksgiving (or Christmas) you guys are like "See 'ya newbies, we'll be back in a week."? Or maybe the 2+1 was for the first year you were a company, as opposed to individual's tenure?
      - shykes 14y ago
        Yes, that's what it means :) We've put this in place for 2 reasons: 1) The 1st year at dotCloud is a big step for us, and a lot of people didn't make it in the past. Making it means that somebody has truly proven his worth (since he or she wasn't fired) and has adapted to our unusual culture (since he or she didn't resign). By attaching perks like this to the anniversary, we emphasize its importance. 2) We don't want people to join for the vacation. We take a lot of breaks because that's what intense, hard-working people need to avoid burnout. But the majority of people on the job market are not hard-working and intense enough for our standards - we're hoping this will help us filter for them.
jordan0day 14y ago
I've been at places where a switch to "unlimited" would basically mean : You no longer have a number you can point to and say "I'm owed this many days of vacation time." Fortunately, at my current company, when we switched to "unlimited" there was an added "and you're expected to take a minimum of 3 weeks per year". So, while the upper bound is still completely nebulous, by setting a reasonable minimum, it's clear they're not just trying to screw anyone over.
kenneth_reitz 14y ago
I think it really depends on the culture of the company. At Heroku, we are actively encouraged to take vacation. There has actually been talk of building something to track employee vacation time, to ensure that everyone is taking enough :)

shykes 14y ago

We had a similar debate at dotCloud when the team discussed the appropriate amount of vacation. Unlimited was very tempting, but in the end we decided against it because 1) it's ambiguous and offers little guarantees, 2) it makes a lot of people suspicious ("Like AT&T unlimited?") and 3) it doesn't force people to take vacation. Number 3 was the worst. Passionate people will burn themselves out if you don't setup some sort of "vacation monitoring". We liked the idea of making that explicit: lots of vacation, and rules that force you to use them regularly. In the end we went for 2+1 weeks on the first year, and 3+2 weeks after that.

famousactress 14y ago
Does 3+2 mean "3 required, optionally take 2 additional"?
- shykes 14y ago
  Sorry, forgot to explain. 3+2 means "3 weeks accrued over the year and usable anytime, 2 weeks of company-wide break (specifically the weeks of thanksgiving and christmas)". The decision to do a company-wide break probably deserves a thread of its own. The short version is that it works great.
  - robbles 14y ago
    Wait, how do you have a week-long "company-wide" break? Does that mean nobody is working for a whole week?
    - shykes 14y ago
      Yes, that's what it means, with the exception of support and on-call rotation. Let's face it: american companies are not productive over thanksgiving and christmas. They just pretend to be. By making these 2 weeks vacation, we simply embrace reality.
  - LordIllidan 14y ago
    What about support?
    - w3pm 14y ago
      Not everyone works on products requiring 24/7 support. We also take a mandatory 1.5 week company break around the December holidays -- it's fantastic!
    - shykes 14y ago
      Good question, there are special arrangements for support and 24/7 on-call rotation (eg. if you have to work during the company break you get vacation days). It's also very easy to trade on-call days with colleagues, and other ad-hoc arrangements. I'm not 100% certain this would work in a bigger company where people think of it as "just a job". But in a small team where everybody is passionate and eager to make it successful, it works great.
      - LordIllidan 14y ago
        Thanks for the answer - I thought it would be something like this. Taking 2 weeks off during the holiday period is a great thing to do!
  - famousactress 14y ago
    So... First year folks are 2+1. So does that mean on the week or Thanksgiving (or Christmas) you guys are like "See 'ya newbies, we'll be back in a week."? Or maybe the 2+1 was for the first year you were a company, as opposed to individual's tenure?
    - shykes 14y ago
      Yes, that's what it means :) We've put this in place for 2 reasons: 1) The 1st year at dotCloud is a big step for us, and a lot of people didn't make it in the past. Making it means that somebody has truly proven his worth (since he or she wasn't fired) and has adapted to our unusual culture (since he or she didn't resign). By attaching perks like this to the anniversary, we emphasize its importance. 2) We don't want people to join for the vacation. We take a lot of breaks because that's what intense, hard-working people need to avoid burnout. But the majority of people on the job market are not hard-working and intense enough for our standards - we're hoping this will help us filter for them.

jordan0day 14y ago

I've been at places where a switch to "unlimited" would basically mean : You no longer have a number you can point to and say "I'm owed this many days of vacation time." Fortunately, at my current company, when we switched to "unlimited" there was an added "and you're expected to take a minimum of 3 weeks per year". So, while the upper bound is still completely nebulous, by setting a reasonable minimum, it's clear they're not just trying to screw anyone over.

kenneth_reitz 14y ago

I think it really depends on the culture of the company. At Heroku, we are actively encouraged to take vacation. There has actually been talk of building something to track employee vacation time, to ensure that everyone is taking enough :)