6 ms·

I think it's important to note that this study, at least to my understanding, compared cardio training - not weightlifting or resistance training. Participants

I think it's important to note that this study, at least to my understanding, compared cardio training - not weightlifting or resistance training. Participants did 3 weekly sessions of either low intensity, moderate treadmill excercise or HIIT ( 4-min @ 85–95%, 3min 60-70% ). I get the feeling some commenters here are misunderstanding this as a lot of the discussions seems to center about weightlifting. Additionally from what I understood the biggest difference was that the HIIT group lost less muscle while fat loss was roughly the same.

bitexploder 3mo ago
This study is completely unsurprising to me having read a lot of fitness studies over the years. Work muscles harder, muscles get stronger. That is how hormesis goes. The fat loss is simple energy expenditure. You are still producing roughly the same work as someone doing more steady state work. Only effect that might come up is post exercise metabolism elevation but that effect is relatively small and probably present for both groups.
- ralferoo 3mo ago
  > The fat loss is simple energy expenditure. But it's not, unless there is a calorie deficit. If you do aerobic exercise, almost all the energy comes from burning fat. Because your body will have used very little glucose, you're unlikely to feel particularly hungry after that exercise. If you do anaerobic exercise, almost all the energy comes from glycogen stores. Your body will crave carbohydrates immediately after exercise, and only resort to glucogenesis burning fat if you don't fuel enough afterwards. There's a significantly higher risk of over-consumption after doing anerobic exercise and aerobic exercise because your body wants to replace the glycogen that got used up.
  - tryagainian 3mo ago
    Can you clarify your last paragraph, looks like there’s a typo or grammatical error that states the same outcome for both arguments put forward in the preceding paragraphs.
    - faangguyindia 3mo ago
      some people may become experience increased appetite from workout while others may have hunger dampening effect. but bigger reason imho is that people overestimate calorie burn from exercises and fool themselves into thinking now it's OK to consume more food.
    - ralferoo 3mo ago
      I can't edit it now as it was posted more than 2 hours ago, but good spot. "anerobic exercise and aerobic exercise" should have read "anerobic exercise compared to anaerobic exercise".
  - bitexploder 3mo ago
    "If you do aerobic exercise, almost all the energy comes from burning fat. " This is directionally incorrect. Your body will burn both concurrently. For low intensity aerobic exercise, fat is used as the dominant energy source. However even at moderate intensity levels like jogging and "zone 2" aerobic you are 50/50. At higher intensity you have crossed the inflection point and are using more glycogen than not. All strictly aerobic exercise. And it all works on a balance anyway. You use glycogen, it gets replaced until everything is topped off. Doing that means it isn't getting converted to fat. Both forms of exercise are shown to have an "anti-hunger" effect. And unless you are walking, your body is also shunting blood away from your gut which also has a secondary hunger dampening effect as it doesn't resume blood flow too it immediately. So for anything we would call aerobic exercise, that is zone 2 "cardio" or greater, I would have to disagree with your main claims about it.
    - ralferoo 3mo ago
      > This is directionally incorrect. Your body will burn both concurrently. For aerobic exercise, your body gets around 95% of the energy from burning fat. If you are doing exercise where you are 50/50, then it is by definition no longer aerobic exercise but anaerobic. Anaerobic exercise starts at the point that your body is forced to use glucose from glycogen to provide energy because you have reached the limit of the energy your body can produce from burning fat, because your body can't provide oxygen at the rate required to do so.
      - kazinator 3mo ago
        There are two exercise intensity thresholds related to respiration: VT1 and VT2 (ventilatory threshold). Everything from minimal activity far below VT1 to VT2 (a.k.a. "lactate threshold", LT, a.k.a. "anaerobic threshold", AT) is "aerobic". Near the VT2 limit, very little fat is used compared to glucose. Fat burning proportions as high as 95% are only reached under very light activity. (And/or in glycogen depleted exercisers whose body has switched to fat out of necessity). That doesn't represent the entire aerobic range. There is aerobic use of glucose (below the lactate threshold, "clean burning") and anaerobic (above AT, generating lactic acid). A useful parameter is the absolute fat burn rate. Maximal fat burning does not occur at exercise intensities that derive a large proportion of energy from fat. Supposedly, this "FatMax" exercise intensity fairly closely coincides with the VT1 threshold. Here, around 60% of the energy comes from fat. I'm "fat checking" all this as I type; I used to know more about this stuff, but forgot a lot.
- IncreasePosts 3mo ago
  I would have thought the fat loss comes from hormonal changes, not merely the energy used during exercise.
thesz 3mo ago
HIIT is a borderline strength training. Consider Tabata protocol. It is supermaximal effort protocol, participants are required to exert maximum effort repeatedly. The duration of active phase of Tabata is 20 seconds, half of approximately 40 seconds after which maximum performance (power output) drops significantly, because body switches to a different energy system. In my experience, Tabata squats are done in range of 16-21 per 20 seconds of active phase. So, basically, Tabata squats are equal to somewhat less than 8 sets of 16-20 repetitions done close to failure. The failure usually come after first active phase, so that's why there are "somewhat less than 8 sets." I personally define failure as breakage of exercise form or exercise pace, and this is what I and others experience in Tabata squats. And you know what? If you go close to failure, muscle mass and strength grow in the range of 5 to 35 repetitions [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN_c4sQwfTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN_c4sQwfTI PS Other HIIT protocols are similar. For example, 3 one-minute-active-phase-one-minute-rest supermaximal protocol also leans close to "3 sets of 35 repetitions done to failure" - squats' pace noticeably quickly deteriorate to 1 squat in two seconds.
- alfiedotwtf 3mo ago
  So that’s for building muscle, but what about if you wanted to lose a few kilos and increase endurance for long distance running? What would be the way to go to optimise your time?
  - nemomarx 3mo ago
    If you want to increase endurance for running I think the general suggestion is to hit the track and do running? Get your mile time down or similar. In my personal experience I've found strength training better for losing weight than just cardio but any activity will help a bit. You'll really need to adjust your diet in some way for it though, or at least start counting and keep your calories steady as you do more activity. Trying to outburn what you eat takes like an hour of exercise a day otherwise, it's tough.
    - Earw0rm 3mo ago
      Strength training has more of a positive effect on body composition. The problem with doing a lot of cardio is that you need muscle to burn calories (especially so without injury and as you get older), and too much medium intensity cardio will start to chew up lean mass. No harm in doing a bit of both though, especially if your goal is fitness/maintenance rather than maximum strength or a particular look.
nubg 3mo ago
can you tldr me if weightlighting will put me roughly in the "hiit" group discussed in the paper, and give me its benefits?
- Schiendelman 3mo ago
  No, you also need cardio. Even if your heart rate goes up while lifting, it's sustained cardio that really improves your cardiovascular health, keeping your heart rate up in zone 2+ for 45+ minutes at a time a few times a week.
lambdasquirrel 3mo ago
Also worth noting that not all muscle mass is the same. Too many people read these things and lacking context, they get swindled one way and then another.

bitexploder 3mo ago

This study is completely unsurprising to me having read a lot of fitness studies over the years. Work muscles harder, muscles get stronger. That is how hormesis goes. The fat loss is simple energy expenditure. You are still producing roughly the same work as someone doing more steady state work. Only effect that might come up is post exercise metabolism elevation but that effect is relatively small and probably present for both groups.

ralferoo 3mo ago
> The fat loss is simple energy expenditure. But it's not, unless there is a calorie deficit. If you do aerobic exercise, almost all the energy comes from burning fat. Because your body will have used very little glucose, you're unlikely to feel particularly hungry after that exercise. If you do anaerobic exercise, almost all the energy comes from glycogen stores. Your body will crave carbohydrates immediately after exercise, and only resort to glucogenesis burning fat if you don't fuel enough afterwards. There's a significantly higher risk of over-consumption after doing anerobic exercise and aerobic exercise because your body wants to replace the glycogen that got used up.
- tryagainian 3mo ago
  Can you clarify your last paragraph, looks like there’s a typo or grammatical error that states the same outcome for both arguments put forward in the preceding paragraphs.
  - faangguyindia 3mo ago
    some people may become experience increased appetite from workout while others may have hunger dampening effect. but bigger reason imho is that people overestimate calorie burn from exercises and fool themselves into thinking now it's OK to consume more food.
  - ralferoo 3mo ago
    I can't edit it now as it was posted more than 2 hours ago, but good spot. "anerobic exercise and aerobic exercise" should have read "anerobic exercise compared to anaerobic exercise".
- bitexploder 3mo ago
  "If you do aerobic exercise, almost all the energy comes from burning fat. " This is directionally incorrect. Your body will burn both concurrently. For low intensity aerobic exercise, fat is used as the dominant energy source. However even at moderate intensity levels like jogging and "zone 2" aerobic you are 50/50. At higher intensity you have crossed the inflection point and are using more glycogen than not. All strictly aerobic exercise. And it all works on a balance anyway. You use glycogen, it gets replaced until everything is topped off. Doing that means it isn't getting converted to fat. Both forms of exercise are shown to have an "anti-hunger" effect. And unless you are walking, your body is also shunting blood away from your gut which also has a secondary hunger dampening effect as it doesn't resume blood flow too it immediately. So for anything we would call aerobic exercise, that is zone 2 "cardio" or greater, I would have to disagree with your main claims about it.
  - ralferoo 3mo ago
    > This is directionally incorrect. Your body will burn both concurrently. For aerobic exercise, your body gets around 95% of the energy from burning fat. If you are doing exercise where you are 50/50, then it is by definition no longer aerobic exercise but anaerobic. Anaerobic exercise starts at the point that your body is forced to use glucose from glycogen to provide energy because you have reached the limit of the energy your body can produce from burning fat, because your body can't provide oxygen at the rate required to do so.
    - kazinator 3mo ago
      There are two exercise intensity thresholds related to respiration: VT1 and VT2 (ventilatory threshold). Everything from minimal activity far below VT1 to VT2 (a.k.a. "lactate threshold", LT, a.k.a. "anaerobic threshold", AT) is "aerobic". Near the VT2 limit, very little fat is used compared to glucose. Fat burning proportions as high as 95% are only reached under very light activity. (And/or in glycogen depleted exercisers whose body has switched to fat out of necessity). That doesn't represent the entire aerobic range. There is aerobic use of glucose (below the lactate threshold, "clean burning") and anaerobic (above AT, generating lactic acid). A useful parameter is the absolute fat burn rate. Maximal fat burning does not occur at exercise intensities that derive a large proportion of energy from fat. Supposedly, this "FatMax" exercise intensity fairly closely coincides with the VT1 threshold. Here, around 60% of the energy comes from fat. I'm "fat checking" all this as I type; I used to know more about this stuff, but forgot a lot.
IncreasePosts 3mo ago
I would have thought the fat loss comes from hormonal changes, not merely the energy used during exercise.

thesz 3mo ago

HIIT is a borderline strength training. Consider Tabata protocol. It is supermaximal effort protocol, participants are required to exert maximum effort repeatedly. The duration of active phase of Tabata is 20 seconds, half of approximately 40 seconds after which maximum performance (power output) drops significantly, because body switches to a different energy system. In my experience, Tabata squats are done in range of 16-21 per 20 seconds of active phase. So, basically, Tabata squats are equal to somewhat less than 8 sets of 16-20 repetitions done close to failure. The failure usually come after first active phase, so that's why there are "somewhat less than 8 sets." I personally define failure as breakage of exercise form or exercise pace, and this is what I and others experience in Tabata squats. And you know what? If you go close to failure, muscle mass and strength grow in the range of 5 to 35 repetitions [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN_c4sQwfTI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN_c4sQwfTI PS Other HIIT protocols are similar. For example, 3 one-minute-active-phase-one-minute-rest supermaximal protocol also leans close to "3 sets of 35 repetitions done to failure" - squats' pace noticeably quickly deteriorate to 1 squat in two seconds.

alfiedotwtf 3mo ago
So that’s for building muscle, but what about if you wanted to lose a few kilos and increase endurance for long distance running? What would be the way to go to optimise your time?
- nemomarx 3mo ago
  If you want to increase endurance for running I think the general suggestion is to hit the track and do running? Get your mile time down or similar. In my personal experience I've found strength training better for losing weight than just cardio but any activity will help a bit. You'll really need to adjust your diet in some way for it though, or at least start counting and keep your calories steady as you do more activity. Trying to outburn what you eat takes like an hour of exercise a day otherwise, it's tough.
  - Earw0rm 3mo ago
    Strength training has more of a positive effect on body composition. The problem with doing a lot of cardio is that you need muscle to burn calories (especially so without injury and as you get older), and too much medium intensity cardio will start to chew up lean mass. No harm in doing a bit of both though, especially if your goal is fitness/maintenance rather than maximum strength or a particular look.

nubg 3mo ago

can you tldr me if weightlighting will put me roughly in the "hiit" group discussed in the paper, and give me its benefits?

Schiendelman 3mo ago
No, you also need cardio. Even if your heart rate goes up while lifting, it's sustained cardio that really improves your cardiovascular health, keeping your heart rate up in zone 2+ for 45+ minutes at a time a few times a week.

lambdasquirrel 3mo ago

Also worth noting that not all muscle mass is the same. Too many people read these things and lacking context, they get swindled one way and then another.