5 ms·

free speech, I fear, is in retreat

by blitzar 3mo ago

N_Lens 3mo ago
I'm sorry Mario, your Free Speech is in another Castle!
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
nashashmi 3mo ago
Europe (which could mean anything from the UK to Belgium to Hungary to Turkey) never had absolute freedom of speech like the US. But yes, even by the US standards to champion freedom of speech, it is in retreat.
- blitzar 3mo ago
  never had absolute freedom of speech like the US, which itself (since it was colonised) never had absolute freedom of speech.
- mrtksn 3mo ago
  I got the impression that free speech in the US is limited to right to annoy people and harass politicians from distance. Seems to be more restricted than Europe actually since access is tied to private property and its culturally acceptable to remove people from private spaces if you don't like their speech. In this particular case the US embassy appears to have "hacked" their way by claiming that those journalists are a threat but if it was in US they could have been removed and have their free speech in a designated area simply because they don't want them there. You can give finger to Trump from distance but you can't attend to his press conference to actually ask him stuff if he doesn't like you. That's just slightly different from Turkey where you will be arrested for giving the finger to Erdogan's motorcade(happened a few times, then Turks learned their lessons and in the stats Turkey doesn't arrest as much as Britain). In contrast, in most of Europe you usually can approach and ask politicians whatever you like.
  - aa-jv 3mo ago
    >I got the impression that free speech in the US is limited to right to annoy people and harass politicians from distance. That's a pretty trite way of looking at it. You could see for example how important free speech was to the US' civil rights movement in making sure that people were able to organize to challenge the status quo. >.. if it was in US they could have been removed and have their free speech in a designated area simply because they don't want them there. US' citizens generally have a better time in courts challenging such things than Europeans do, however. >In contrast, in most of Europe you usually can approach and ask politicians whatever you like. But can you tell them whatever you like without facing repercussion if they don't like what they're hearing? No. In the US, you can still exercise your right to free speech to inform your fellow citizens about the genocide of Gaza - in Europe, most definitely not so easy. (Some European states, its easier than others ...)
    - mrtksn 3mo ago
      US civil rights movement? Seriously? Different times different people. In the latest free speech crusade a rich guy just changed the kind of speech is allowed on his platform. Online speech is heavily restricted on US platforms, as accounts are shadow banned/rate limited/deleted all the time. What freedom of speech examples do you have that involve living people? Every single one freedom of speech fighter are fascist who demand some other speech be suppressed and theirs amplified. Remember their attitudes over the Charlie Kirk assassination reactions? I don't really care about the courts in this, you win in court and never speak again anything new because you don't want to go through all this again. And who cares if you can tell someone something if you can't engage with them. Are you casting a spell? why would you care someone hears you? In USA they take you to safe distance behind some barriers to tell your thing. Useless stuff. I don't know why you believe that you can't inform people about the genocide of Gaza in Europe, in fact Europeans are significantly more informed on this and having flotillas and what not. US free speech seems to be performative. Its even limited to words, they try not to say the N word and do all their racism without that, then they are relieved when they end up saying the N word and claim freedom of speech win. It's weird from European perspective.
- deleted 3mo ago
  [deleted]
- jampekka 3mo ago
  EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, Article 11: Freedom of expression and information 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. 2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected.
  - loeg 3mo ago
    Is this the right of freedom of expression? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/09/pimmelgate-german-politician-police-raid/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/09/pimmelgate-g...
    - niemandhier 3mo ago
      In our legal system not all way to express your opinion are protected. Death threats, insults and promises of rape can be considered ways to express yourself, but any opinion worth expressing can be stated without. Sure, this can be the first step to the suppression of dissenting points of view. The thing is: Before the nazis came to power, they made everybody else afraid to state their mind with open threats and violence. So it’s painfully obvious that unmoderated free speech can also be used to suppress dissenting opinions.
    - jampekka 3mo ago
      No, and the raid was deemed illegal by a judge and the case was dropped.
- egeozcan 3mo ago
  I'm saying this with love, so hear me out: Turkey has nothing to do with what comes to mind when you talk about anything European, except maybe some parts of Istanbul and Izmir. I was born and raised in Turkey, and I have been living in Germany for nearly two decades, and I have Greeks, Bulgarians and Kurdish in my family too (no. I don't take pills to survive), so I know what I'm talking about. It's not about inferiority/superiority, it's just a completely, unmistakably different culture, perspective on life, degree of pragmatism, and... everything. Especially when it comes to the topic at hand, freedom of speech. I think the Ottomans have a lasting effect there. The Turkish search for the new sultan never ends. You may say that some tendency in dictatorship exists everywhere, but in Turkey, you'll see authoritarian ambitions in the speeches of even the most supposedly liberal people. I also have to say, I'm not even talking about religion. Perhaps the most religious groups, Muslim or Christian or Jewish, are the groups with the most similarities actually.
ethagnawl 3mo ago
Which is quite ironic, given all the chuds running around and screeching about _free speech absolutism_.
- SidewaysView 3mo ago
  Maybe frozen fruit will finally die the death it deserves and we can get back to making the world a better place.
- vvpan 3mo ago
  Free speech for them, "woke propaganda" for you.
- vrganj 3mo ago
  You misunderstood, they were only ever concerned with the freedom of their speech. You know, stuff like inciting racial hatred. It was never their opposition's speech they wanted to be free.
  - actionfromafar 3mo ago
    "If democracy is foolish enough to give us free railway passes and salaries, that is its problem... We are coming neither as friends or neutrals. We come as enemies! As the wolf attacks the sheep, so come we."
kjksf 3mo ago
[flagged]
- halestock 3mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect
- latortuga 3mo ago
  What even kind of response is this? The high profile ambassador invited the journalists to his event officially, presumably to BE JOURNALISTS.
mito88 3mo ago
freeze peach

free speech, I fear, is in retreat

by blitzar 3mo ago

free speech, I fear, is in retreat

N_Lens 3mo ago

I'm sorry Mario, your Free Speech is in another Castle!

deleted 3mo ago

[deleted]

nashashmi 3mo ago

Europe (which could mean anything from the UK to Belgium to Hungary to Turkey) never had absolute freedom of speech like the US. But yes, even by the US standards to champion freedom of speech, it is in retreat.

blitzar 3mo ago
never had absolute freedom of speech like the US, which itself (since it was colonised) never had absolute freedom of speech.
mrtksn 3mo ago
I got the impression that free speech in the US is limited to right to annoy people and harass politicians from distance. Seems to be more restricted than Europe actually since access is tied to private property and its culturally acceptable to remove people from private spaces if you don't like their speech. In this particular case the US embassy appears to have "hacked" their way by claiming that those journalists are a threat but if it was in US they could have been removed and have their free speech in a designated area simply because they don't want them there. You can give finger to Trump from distance but you can't attend to his press conference to actually ask him stuff if he doesn't like you. That's just slightly different from Turkey where you will be arrested for giving the finger to Erdogan's motorcade(happened a few times, then Turks learned their lessons and in the stats Turkey doesn't arrest as much as Britain). In contrast, in most of Europe you usually can approach and ask politicians whatever you like.
- aa-jv 3mo ago
  >I got the impression that free speech in the US is limited to right to annoy people and harass politicians from distance. That's a pretty trite way of looking at it. You could see for example how important free speech was to the US' civil rights movement in making sure that people were able to organize to challenge the status quo. >.. if it was in US they could have been removed and have their free speech in a designated area simply because they don't want them there. US' citizens generally have a better time in courts challenging such things than Europeans do, however. >In contrast, in most of Europe you usually can approach and ask politicians whatever you like. But can you tell them whatever you like without facing repercussion if they don't like what they're hearing? No. In the US, you can still exercise your right to free speech to inform your fellow citizens about the genocide of Gaza - in Europe, most definitely not so easy. (Some European states, its easier than others ...)
  - mrtksn 3mo ago
    US civil rights movement? Seriously? Different times different people. In the latest free speech crusade a rich guy just changed the kind of speech is allowed on his platform. Online speech is heavily restricted on US platforms, as accounts are shadow banned/rate limited/deleted all the time. What freedom of speech examples do you have that involve living people? Every single one freedom of speech fighter are fascist who demand some other speech be suppressed and theirs amplified. Remember their attitudes over the Charlie Kirk assassination reactions? I don't really care about the courts in this, you win in court and never speak again anything new because you don't want to go through all this again. And who cares if you can tell someone something if you can't engage with them. Are you casting a spell? why would you care someone hears you? In USA they take you to safe distance behind some barriers to tell your thing. Useless stuff. I don't know why you believe that you can't inform people about the genocide of Gaza in Europe, in fact Europeans are significantly more informed on this and having flotillas and what not. US free speech seems to be performative. Its even limited to words, they try not to say the N word and do all their racism without that, then they are relieved when they end up saying the N word and claim freedom of speech win. It's weird from European perspective.
deleted 3mo ago
[deleted]
jampekka 3mo ago
EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, Article 11: Freedom of expression and information 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. 2. The freedom and pluralism of the media shall be respected.
- loeg 3mo ago
  Is this the right of freedom of expression? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/09/pimmelgate-german-politician-police-raid/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/09/pimmelgate-g...
  - niemandhier 3mo ago
    In our legal system not all way to express your opinion are protected. Death threats, insults and promises of rape can be considered ways to express yourself, but any opinion worth expressing can be stated without. Sure, this can be the first step to the suppression of dissenting points of view. The thing is: Before the nazis came to power, they made everybody else afraid to state their mind with open threats and violence. So it’s painfully obvious that unmoderated free speech can also be used to suppress dissenting opinions.
  - jampekka 3mo ago
    No, and the raid was deemed illegal by a judge and the case was dropped.
egeozcan 3mo ago
I'm saying this with love, so hear me out: Turkey has nothing to do with what comes to mind when you talk about anything European, except maybe some parts of Istanbul and Izmir. I was born and raised in Turkey, and I have been living in Germany for nearly two decades, and I have Greeks, Bulgarians and Kurdish in my family too (no. I don't take pills to survive), so I know what I'm talking about. It's not about inferiority/superiority, it's just a completely, unmistakably different culture, perspective on life, degree of pragmatism, and... everything. Especially when it comes to the topic at hand, freedom of speech. I think the Ottomans have a lasting effect there. The Turkish search for the new sultan never ends. You may say that some tendency in dictatorship exists everywhere, but in Turkey, you'll see authoritarian ambitions in the speeches of even the most supposedly liberal people. I also have to say, I'm not even talking about religion. Perhaps the most religious groups, Muslim or Christian or Jewish, are the groups with the most similarities actually.

ethagnawl 3mo ago

Which is quite ironic, given all the chuds running around and screeching about _free speech absolutism_.

SidewaysView 3mo ago
Maybe frozen fruit will finally die the death it deserves and we can get back to making the world a better place.
vvpan 3mo ago
Free speech for them, "woke propaganda" for you.
vrganj 3mo ago
You misunderstood, they were only ever concerned with the freedom of their speech. You know, stuff like inciting racial hatred. It was never their opposition's speech they wanted to be free.
- actionfromafar 3mo ago
  "If democracy is foolish enough to give us free railway passes and salaries, that is its problem... We are coming neither as friends or neutrals. We come as enemies! As the wolf attacks the sheep, so come we."

kjksf 3mo ago

[flagged]

halestock 3mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_effect
latortuga 3mo ago
What even kind of response is this? The high profile ambassador invited the journalists to his event officially, presumably to BE JOURNALISTS.

mito88 3mo ago

freeze peach