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Daisugi, the Japanese technique of growing trees out of other trees (2020)
https://x.com/wrathofgnon/status/1250287741247426565 https://x.com/wrathofgnon/status/1250287741247426565, https://xcancel.com/wrathofgnon/status/1250287741247426565 https://xcancel.com/wrathofgnon/status/1250287741247426565
- wxw 3mo agoI don't quite understand -- what is it about this technique that makes the trees grow perfectly straight and why is > the lumber produced in this method is 140% as flexible as standard cedar and 200% as dense/strong, ?
- Fwirt 3mo agoIt’s exploiting the natural tendency of trees to create “waterspouts” through a technique called pollarding. When a tree suffers an injury it creates a bunch of new twigs that tend to grow straight upwards if the injury is on the upper branches. The waterspouts grow more slowly and so in this species of cedar they develop those desirable properties.
- bgnn 3mo agoIt is actually a type of cypress, not a cedar.
- rdiddly 3mo agoThis article is just a rehash or summary. Check out one of the sources it links to (since the other is broken) for details on the technique: https://mymodernmet.com/kitayama-cedar-daisugi/ https://mymodernmet.com/kitayama-cedar-daisugi/ The strength & flexibility I would guess are attributable to the lack of knots and the straightness of the grain. One thing both writers keep doing that's annoying is calling it a cedar. The tree is cryptomeria japonica, known as sugi, which in English is sometimes known by various misnomers such as "Japanese cedar" and "Japanese redwood," both of which should be taken as more poetic than scientific.
- culi 3mo agoFew trees called "cedar" are in the Cedrus genus. To be fair many of these were called a type of "cedar" before the Cedrus genus was even coined. Cedar really just means "a really good tree" (for woodworking)
- buildbot 3mo agoTIL that PNW Western Red Cedars are not in fact, Cedar trees!
- culi 3mo agoAgain, what is and isn't a "true cedar" is a silly debate. Some of these trees were called cedars before Cedrus was even coined. Junipers and even citrus were called cedars long before Linnaeus came along. It really got applied to any tree that had scented, rot-resistant wood In fact, most trees called cedars are NOT Cedrus.
- rdiddly 3mo agoI'm not caring so much about the Cedrus genus, as the dilution of the word through unimaginative overuse and over-application. But to the extent that it still means anything at all, I would say it means an aromatic evergreen, since those are the two traits that seem to unite all the various trees colloquially referred to as cedars.
- jibal 3mo agoThey grow straight because they are shoots/suckers, and that's how tree biology works. And they are pruned every two years to prevent knots and side branches. The lumber is dense/strong because the shoots have a robustness advantage due to being part of a mature tree with all its resources.
- operation_moose 3mo agoIsn't this just Pollarding and/or Coppicing, which have been practiced for at least 2000 years in Europe (and probably many other cultures as well), with a healthy dose of orientalism added on top?
- grey-area 3mo agoYes it is.
- thrownawaysz 3mo ago>with a healthy dose of orientalism added on top Also known as 'Thing, Japan'. HN eats up articles like this every single week. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thing-japan https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/thing-japan
- jrowen 3mo agoThis is such an interesting subtext. I think the original comment was a bit unfair to call it "just pollarding," at the least it's a very specific subtype that has its own culture and clear uniqueness. Your comment feels somewhat reductive as well, you could basically replace "Japan" with a lot of things that are appreciated by some sizable subset of HN readers. But, for some reason Japan does seem to inspire a certain fervor in both the otakus and weeaboos and their inverses. I think it's because it's the closest thing to an alien civilization for Westerners.
- chmod775 3mo agoIf it makes you feel any better, the reverse holds as well. Grass is greener mentality exists everywhere.
- IAmBroom 3mo agoI remember in the 1990s watching a bit of British TV, where an ad asked, "What do women in Los Angeles know about beauty that British women don't?" (obviously selling some "secret" "American" product). In LA those are either French or Italian women, selfishly hoarding all the good skin cream. I then wondered who the French and Italian women think are the beauty-secret-holders...
- ksymph 3mo agoThe article is pretty light on details. Essentially, the tree is first pruned to create a wide and sturdy base; once that's stable, subsequent shoots from the branches are pruned to grow vertically. The technique relies on this particular variety of cedar which tends to grow vertically but can also be made to spread out a bit. It has some advantages in space-saving and efficiency but it's also very labor-intensive.
- gordonhart 3mo agoInteresting technique, horrible article. Manages to convey significantly less information than the X thread it mined for ad revenue. https://xcancel.com/wrathofgnon/status/1250287741247426565 https://xcancel.com/wrathofgnon/status/1250287741247426565
- tape_measure 3mo agohttps://x.com/wrathofgnon/status/1250287741247426565 https://x.com/wrathofgnon/status/1250287741247426565
- dang 3mo agoNot sure that's entirely fair - openculture.com is usually pretty good, and the article draws on multiple sources. But I take your word for it that the twitter thread is good and have added it to the top text.
- rythmshifter 3mo agoAn ad or something on this page attempted to load a link in an app I did not have
- ChrisArchitect 3mo ago(2020) Some previous discussions: 2023: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37759366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37759366 2021: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26941631 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26941631
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- cineticdaffodil 3mo agoIm confused.. wouldnt this be suspect to a weight limit - as the full stem would weigh on the carrying "tree" - especially during wind and storms?
- boudin 3mo agoWhen doing coppicing it's definitely something to be careful with. Once started, the trees needs to be cared for regularly. E.g. on the ash trees I have, it needs to be "harvested" every 8 to 9 years. If you fail to do that there's the risk of the tree splitting because of the weight but also branches breaking indeed in case of storms.
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- backlit4034 3mo agoI thought this was the name of a new startup
- nerder92 3mo agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37759366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37759366 Same discussion 3 years ago
- tomhow 3mo agoThanks, macroexpanded, and another one... Daisugi, the Japanese technique of growing trees out of other trees (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37759366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37759366 - Oct 2023 (102 comments) Daisugi, the 600-year-old Japanese technique of growing trees out of other trees - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26941631 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26941631 - April 2021 (171 comments)
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- wiradikusuma 3mo agoIt's cute because it's trees. Somehow I keep thinking Mad Max where women were kept just to produce baby and milk, or Alien where alien "subtree" sprouted from human "tree". I guess nature/human is cruel?
- squibonpig 3mo agoYeah I kinda feel bad for the trees but they probably don't care
- petit_robert 3mo agoIt's not limited to Japan. The French call them 'trognes' https://www.agroforesterie.fr/la-trogne-arbre-paysan-aux-mille-usages/ https://www.agroforesterie.fr/la-trogne-arbre-paysan-aux-mil... Other countries do it too : https://trognes.fr/trognes/trognes-a-travers-le-monde/ https://trognes.fr/trognes/trognes-a-travers-le-monde/
- quirkot 3mo agoIn english this is called pollarding a tree. Historically it has been used for smaller wood pieces (firewood, etc). It's fuctionally different [from daisugi] because you don't get construction grade timber from it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollarding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollarding [edit: clarification]