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China prepares to grow vegetables on Mars
- anthonyb 14y agoAs Bruce Sterling says: "I'll believe that people will colonise Mars when they start colonising the Gobi desert."
- TeMPOraL 14y agoThey probably will - to test equipment, as a part of preparation to colonize Mars.
- vidarh 14y agoThe incentives for colonising the Gobi desert are vastly smaller than for a (small) colony on Mars or the moon, even just in perceived prestige.
- kibwen 14y agoBut the costs are also vastly larger, and the payoffs likely smaller. And prestige? 1/3 of the Earth's land surface is covered by desert. If you could suddenly transform that from a life-hostile to a life-flourishing environment, you'd win as many Nobel Peace Prizes as they can possibly stamp out.
- adrianN 14y agoTransforming the desert into a life flourishing environment is really easy, you just have to add enough water. I believe that's how they do agriculture is large parts of Africa. It's of course quite expensive to do so if you can't get the water from, say, an aquifer. Sometimes you can even flood the whole area, if you want to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression_Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression_Project
- stcredzero 14y ago> I believe that's how they do agriculture is large parts of Africa Adding lots of water is how California turned into an agricultural powerhouse.
- kibwen 14y agoThat's an interesting link, but it doesn't really discuss the ecological effects of such a project regarding human habitablity in surrounding areas. I'm more hopeful for something like the Green Wall of China[1], but aggressive enough to actually reclaim desert rather than merely halt its advance. It's also a plus if it works on a timescale of less than a century. :) Though we should also note that turning desert into (ideally) arable land could have disastrous unforeseen effects; consider how much of the Amazon is fertilized by the Sahara.[2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Wall_of_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Wall_of_China [2] http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=7279 http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=7279
- UnFleshedOne 14y agoTransforming a desert into a life flourishing environment will also potentially affect rainfall patterns and climate in general all over the globe. Can't find the source right now, but fine dust from one particular desert provides large portion of condensation kernels in the world.
- qiqing 14y agoI see your skepticism, sir, and raise you the colonization of the Gobi desert with solar panels: “It’s the Gobi Desert,” said Wang Yu, the vice director of economic planning. “There’s not much other use for it.” http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/business/energy-environment/03renew.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/03/business/energy-environmen...
- pooop 14y agoSince soil samples on mars seem to be strongly oxidizing, even containing perchlorate, the vegetables are likely to catch fire upon touching martian soil.
- xyzzy123 14y agoAnd growing vegetables on the moon is far too expensive to be practical - moon rocks cost thousands of dollars per gram! EDIT: OK, for the benefit of whoever didn't have a sense of humor, I was suggesting that the astronauts might be planning on bringing some soil with them.
- draq 14y agoever heard of supply and demand?
- xyzzy123 14y agoYep. It gets kind of interesting though when you think about the challenges. You could have a really good plan to convert martian soil for plant use, but then again, that might fail. This obviously means you can't depend on your garden. Also, what you would have would be a laboratory, not a garden. You would spend a lot more time analysing the food than eating it. On the other hand, you could carry out a sample return mission, bring some mars dust back, run tests, and land with a solid plan. Only thing is, sample return from mars would make moon rocks look cheap. Finally, bringing the soil with you would be the most reliable method. It's moon rocks in reverse though! That soil would be, kilo for kilo, the most expensive soil in the history of mankind.
- jcfrei 14y agowould've been interesting to know what kind of vegetables.
- xyzzy123 14y agoAh, found it: this is a much better link for the story: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/8044143.html http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/8044143.html "During the experiment, four kinds of edible vegetables, namely lettuce, leaf lettuce, gynura bicolor and sonchus oleraceus, were planted in a 36-square-meter area to absorb the carbon dioxide exhaled by the two astronauts and provide them with oxygen and 30-50 grams of fresh vegetables per meal per person." Google tells me you need 1 ton of soil to cover 30m^2 to a depth of 25cm. So now I'm interested to know if/how they're optimising for mass efficiency.
- rpm4321 14y agoI think they'll use Martian soil. That's what Elon was planning, and other commenters below speak to its practicality.
- positivelogic 14y agoMarsnips ;-)
- polymatter 14y agoWell, I'm glad someone is thinking about what to do when they get there.
- Synthetase 14y agoIt's odd that any mention of Elon Musk colonizing Mars results in rapturous worship. Other efforts, China in particular, seem to attract scorn. Especially in light of the fact that Elon Musk's original plan was to send a greenhouse with plants to Mars. Perhaps I over-estimate the HN crowd.
- patrickk 14y agoCompetition is good. Perhaps NASA will get more funding for Mars missions as a result of this. Everybody wins long-term. It's a shame that it takes a threat of one-upmanship to get people off their asses rather than doing it for the sake of scientific endeavour, but that's human nature.
- Jach 14y agoI see mixed opinions whenever Elon Musk comes up. Perhaps your sample size of comments for both Elon Musk and China is insufficient. Indeed, when you posted your comment in this thread, there were less than 10 other comments.
- ibisum 14y agoLook at China today and tell me you want Mars and the Moon to look like that tomorrow.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- colinplamondon 14y agoChina's a totalitarian government that's fraying at the edges with major scandals, with enormous multi-billion dollar thefts by its ruling elite. That's a little different than Elon Musk. Not all organizations and people are created equally.
- danielweber 14y agoI think the thing most likely to give America a swift kick in the back of their pants about their space program is hearing that China is going to do it first. There's a whole lot to be skeptical about here, but even rumors can kick off a space race.
- skrebbel 14y ago> "If we establish a party branch in space, it would also be the 'highest' of its kind in the world," Xinhua quoted Yang as saying. Really, I love Chinese humor. It's underrated.
- stcredzero 14y agoIt works like this: Grade school kids running around have puns pop into their heads, so by the time they get to high school, they're over the obvious ones. However this only works for their native language. This is why translated puns can sound very stupid. It's also why you're likely to sound stupid when you try to pun in Chinese.
- vitno 14y agoIf China manages to do this, then we will have people on Mars in under 2 years. Competition from china is the only thing I can see spurring the USA into action.
- MichaelApproved 14y agoFar from. It takes nearly 2 years just to get to Mars. Also, China tends to be a fast copier, not a leader. They seem to leave the bulk of development costs to someone else. So I think it's unlikely that they will front the resources it'll take to make a Mars mission possible.
- redial 14y agoKind of like Microsoft? ;) As an aside, as a Non-US citizen of the world, I applaud any effort to get outside of our planet, even more so if they are as ambitious as this one.
- adam-a 14y ago> China tends to be a fast copier, not a leader. What a huge generalisation. This appears to be true in the consumer electronics world perhaps, but look outside of that and it's harder to justify. For example, China has been building a lot of infrastructure in the past few decades, including the longest and highest bridges in the world[0][1]. There was a story on HN a few days ago about a Chinese company's plans to build what will be the tallest building in only 90 days[2]. Granted there is a lot of press about these bridges falling down, and maybe their rocket will blow up half way to Mars. But you can't say that they aren't pushing things themselves. [0]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_bridges_in_the_world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_bridges_in_the_... [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_bridges_in_the_world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_bridges_in_the_world [2]http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4807701 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4807701
- electrograv 14y agoI actually think that it's quite fair to criticize a "leading" achievement that falls apart or otherwise fails soon after. For an achievement to "count", I'd make the bold claim that it has to actually work. * However, I do agree that often to make progress you absolutely have to push your engineering "comfort zone" and try dangerous things, in order to learn from your mistakes. But this does not change my definition of "success", it just acknowledges realities of R&D.
- Achshar 14y agoBut this cannot be of much use, even if they can make an atmosphere somehow, they would need an active core for magnetic field to protect from solar particles/radiation.
- xyzzy123 14y agoTheir experiment was using a closed biosphere, so they're bringing the atmosphere with them. Really, I think the original article was terrible; it omitted important details to make the whole thing sound more silly. Closed biological systems are an interesting field of research. I'm not sure about radiation levels on a mars mission, but if we can solve the problem for humans, it should be solvable for plants/algae.
- rpm4321 14y agoMy impression was that Curiosity's sensors have shown that the presumed danger of Martian radiation has been greatly overestimated. Unfortunately, I can't remember the sources, but I've read it in multiple places.
- danielweber 14y agoThe magnetic field on Earth is not what protects you from radiation. It's the thickness of the atmosphere. Lots of radiation is uncharged particles which don't care at all about a magnetic field.
- quarterto 14y agoFill in the blank: 1. Develop system capable of growing plants on Mars. 2. ____________________ 3. Grow plants on Mars.
- JonnieCache 14y agoPresumably they are also working on that. Also, you forgot step 4.
- rpm4321 14y agoProfit?
- jeffool 14y ago2. Overcome loud opposition to the idea of interfering with Mars until we study it further. Mind you, I'm not advocating that position, but I certainly expect it.
- ultramundane8 14y ago2. Take system to Mars.
- Aardwolf 14y ago2. Stuff vegetables into rocket and launch it.
- ommunist 14y ago2. Filled in 1989 by the Soviet 'Energia' complex.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- xradionut 14y agoChina should focus on developing non-contaminated produce in China, so their elite doesn't have to import it.
- takluyver 14y agoHow well could this work? On the plus side (for plants), the Martian atmosphere is about 95% CO2. Even though the total pressure of the atmosphere is much less than our own, the partial pressure of CO2 is still about 20 times higher (erring a bit on the generous side). On the other hand, Mars is about 1.5 times as far from the sun, so the intensity of sunlight is less than half, and temperatures are correspondingly colder. Then again, if we're going to support human colonists, we probably need a nuclear power source anyway. So let's assume we rig up bright lighting to grow our plants. There's some uncertainty about the soil, but at least some studies suggest that it could support life. There's probably frozen water there, so we'll use the spare heat from our nuclear reactor to melt some. Humans need approximately 30g of Oxygen per hour, which is roughly 1 mole. A fast-photosynthesising plant can produce 30 umol/m2/s. Running the numbers, you'd need 9 square metres of leaf area photosynthesising at that rate per person - assuming it could carry on 24 hours a day. To supply food, you'd need rather more, because not all of the carbon fixed goes into edible parts. This is actually a lot more feasible than I initially thought. You'd probably want to send robots ahead to construct the base and plant the plants, though. And you still have the problem of life support for the journey, which would be several months.
- xyzzy123 14y agoI'm going to repost this here, because currently it seems like the AFP article is misleading the heck out of everyone. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/8044143.html http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90786/8044143.html The experiment was a closed biosphere life support system, 36m^2 involving two subjects for 30 days. The article mentions the moon and mars. As I understand it, this thing would be a sealed capsule that you bring with you. This forms part of the ongoing field of CLESS (controlled ecological life support systems). All the references I've seen point to the Russian Bios-3 project as being the first public example of this. I am also interested to hear more about your ideas regarding the feasibility of martian agriculture :)
- takluyver 14y agoI guess you'd fill the capsule with 'locally sourced' air and soil, though, perhaps supplemented with some nutrients brought from earth. A sealed chamber could be pumped up to around earth pressure, making it easier for the astronauts to go in - although with high CO2, they'd still need oxygen tanks. On the other hand, the pressure difference would require a much stronger capsule, so perhaps farmers in spacesuits is the way to go.
- queryly 14y agoI can totally understand. Growing vegetables on earth just doesn't generate big enough GDP for the 8%-a-year-every-year target.
- IheartApplesDix 14y agoChina has been doing great lately, but this sounds like a case of Icarus to me.
- Aardwolf 14y agoWhy? I don't think launching vegetables to Mars will be their downfall...
- scaphandre 14y agoYou've got it wrong. Mars is further from the sun.
- stcredzero 14y ago> You've got it wrong. Mars is further from the sun. Actually, this has been studied. There's enough sun with the right timing and thermal balance (provided the right kind of greenhouse) to grow food.
- qu4z-2 14y agoI don't thing the GP was worried about the amount of sunlight needed to grow food, but rather pointing out that Icarus's downfall was flying too close to the sun.
- tocomment 14y agoCould curiosity give us a good enough picture of the soil composition on mars that we could recreate it on earth and practice growing plants?
- geuis 14y agoI've only skimmed through the first bit, but this probably answers the question. http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~astrobio/docs/Seiferlin_et_al_2008_Planet_Space_Sci.pdf http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~astrobio/docs/Seiferlin_et_al_2...
- Aardwolf 14y agoI'm all for this, the current policy of "don't contaminate Mars with organic materials" brings us nowhere, let's put some life on there and see what happens!
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y agoI'd be a big fan of sending loads of bacteria with the potential to survive, and some water and stuff, to Mars. Just to see what happens. Hey, the Martian environment would be a "gross evolutionary pressure", right? :)
- flyinRyan 14y agoFantastic. We can check back in a few million years to see how it's working.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y agoWe've got to start sometime ;)
- ommunist 14y agoThese are very good news indeed. I started to wonder what good Elon Musk's colonists and tourists will do on Mars upon arrival. And it appears that they shall be able to buy some grocery! Isn't that wonderful?
- aricg 14y agoI stopped reading at "develop their own sources of ... water"
- bitteralmond 14y agoI hate to knee-jerk this one, but my first reaction to this is that it's probably propaganda. In the States a few years ago, there was an effort to create a self-contained ecosystem and it failed no matter how hard the engineers behind it tried. That China can suddenly say "Yo guys, we got it to work" out of the blue is suspicious at best. Not to say they haven't got something half-functional. I'm just very skeptical that it's as great as they say it is.
- stcredzero 14y agoThere's a lot of thinking in the comments here which is good for what it is, but which lags far behind engineers and scientists who have thought about it for years. Get your hands on this book and read. http://amzn.com/0684835509 http://amzn.com/0684835509
- danielweber 14y agoThere is a new version people should get instead. Not much has changed but we might as well direct people to the latest stuff: http://www.amzn.com/145160811X http://www.amzn.com/145160811X
- stcredzero 14y agoSorry, wasn't paying attention.
- MrBrandon 14y agoIt's a worthwhile goal but the preparing is a poor choice of words because it sounds like it's happening next week. You prepare yourself for work in the morning. You prepare for going to the supermarket. You prepare to take a dump by making sure toilet paper is present. You prepare for a trip. You research growing plants on Mars for many years and eventually stage operations on the Moon. Finally, when the day comes, you prepare for the first mission to Mars.
- flipchart 14y agoOne of my first thoughts was: what will the effects of the reduced gravity be on the plants? Will they still be able to grow successfully?
- flyinRyan 14y agoI've seen plants in photos of the space station and shuttles.