6 ms·
Yes, big pet peeve of the new world. Every em dash is apparently an AI trigger. Back in my day, they were a sign of great respect within my people.
by tyre 4mo ago
Yes, big pet peeve of the new world. Every em dash is apparently an AI trigger. Back in my day, they were a sign of great respect within my people.
- Barbing 4mo agoI might like to see a collection of pre-2022 em-dash usage—a subset I suppose of the Low Background Steel category (https://lowbackgroundsteel.ai https://lowbackgroundsteel.ai).
- sureMan6 4mo agoYou completely misunderstanding the comment feels like an AI trigger
- rogerrogerr 4mo agoI used to be an em-dash user, but now my opinion is that I’d rather be perceived as someone who does not want to be confused with an LLM. So I’ve changed my writing style.
- jackp96 4mo agoThey're just so handy! I do think LLMs tend to use them in a specific way, though. So maybe tweaking your usage (ex. no spaces around them) or using a technically incorrect en-dash might offer the desired effect while subtly signaling that your message isn't AI-generated. I still use them — mostly for pauses — but I'd like to think my voice sounds distinct enough from an AI that people can tell.
- Syntonicles 4mo agoI for one am striving for clarity and couldn't care less about being confused with AI. However I've only ever used regular dashes. How do you type an em-dash? Is it OS specific? I've taken to using Emacs insert-char with a list of frequently used ones in my scratch buffer. My memory for Unicode is unreliable.
- xp84 4mo agoMacs have a native way to do dashes: option- hyphen for en-dash and option shift hyphen for em-dash. On Windows there are some application-specific ways that make sense, e.g. in Office, but outside that you’re on your own and have to use the “hold alt and type the character codes” method! Or charmap.
- topgrain2 4mo agoKeyboard layout specific. Macs with their default English layout use “option-shift-dash” which is really easy to remember (and relatively discoverable, as such things go) which is why using proper m-dashes (not just double-dashes) used to be a strong indicator a poster was using a Mac, before LLMs took the character over. On iOS you type it by pressing dash and holding until alternative options come up, same way you type e.g. accented characters.
- alexfringes 4mo agoYou can also just type two "-" minuses on iOS. So "--" will auto-convert to "—".
- redwall_hp 4mo agoMacs have two possible ways. If you have key repeat enabled, option+shift+dash. Some newer Mac users may have the mode on where holding a key pops up an iOS-style bubble of alternate options, in which case they will just hold hyphen.
- TylerE 4mo agoThat "new" feature has been around since at least 2011.
- feanaro 4mo ago> How do you type an em-dash? Is it OS specific? On Linux X11 at least, you can enable the Compose key and then press `<Compose>---` which results in — and `<Compose>--.` which gives you –
- rplnt 4mo agoI've only ever been using "regular" dash, a minus, for that. How do you even type yours? If I ever needed differently-sized dashes (and I don't know the difference between them) I always used wiki to copy them. (disclaimer: I feel like this obsession with dashes is special to native English speakers, which I'm obviously not)
- Macha 4mo agoDepends on your OS. Mac is the easiest, it's just ---, Linux depends on your distro, if it uses KDE, it's <right-win>--- —. Windows is a little awkward, I think you need <right win>+the code point.
- tyre 4mo agosilly specific: the minus sign is a separate character. The dash equivalent is the en dash (–), versus the larger em (—) and smaller hyphen (-). The en dash is also used in things like scores (3–2 Turkey), votes (the bill passed 58–42), or connecting words where the second part is longer than one word (the Australia–New Zealand alliance.) You can remember the latter as, "a hyphen isn't big and strong enough to hold on to more than one word. If you're on a mac, pressing Option+- is the en dash and Option+Shift+- is the em dash.
- BlaDeKke 4mo agoMy first language is Dutch (Flemish). I didn’t even know there were three different dashes. The em dash is something I didn’t know exist, or were used, until llms came about. The hyphen is something we use when we make a list, that’s just the minus symbol right? So em dashes are for pauses or highlighting things I guess? The en dash you explained in your reaction. Is there any other use for the hyphen except for making lists?
- VectorLock 4mo agoCode switching in the post LLM era.
- Wowfunhappy 4mo agoMy feeling is that my writing doesn't sound anything like an LLM, so if someone thinks I'm an LLM because I used an em-dash, that's on them. That, or I royally screwed up and need to do a better job as a writer. At least with today's LLMs.
- zahlman 4mo ago> if someone thinks I'm an LLM because I used an em-dash, that's on them. I'll go a step further: I think I'd rather actively filter out people whose AI detection is that naïve.
- bogwog 4mo agoThe false positive rate for assuming em-dashers are AI is probably very low right now. I doubt whatever you write is valuable enough to justify the extra time and mental effort of figuring out if something is AI or not. Internet slang like "lol" came from trying to text on those shitty number pads on old cellphones. I expect similar slang will come about in the future from humans trying to prove they're not a dirty clanker. Sacrificing the em-dash is just the beginning of this. Soon, we're all going to be typing without rhythm.
- sysguest 4mo agohmm maybe if we wait longer, LLMs will learnt to be like "none-em-dashers", and we "em-dashers" will prevail?
- wafflemaker 4mo agoEm-dashes and "it's not X. It's Y" seem to be in most LLMs writing style purposefully so they can have detection tools. Just so academia can claim some level of detectability
- tosti 4mo agoThere's also the "paradigm shift" and "a fundamental Z of X". Those really ding my slop'o'meter.
- 998244353 4mo agoI now use "ASCII em-dashes" by using two hyphens -- like this. Or--if you prefer no spaces--like this.
- rogerrogerr 4mo agoNah, I’ve started noticing people doing this replacement automatically in LLM output. I just try not to write with dashes anymore.
- 0gs 4mo agothe nn dash remains the goat. the arg dash
- tim-tday 4mo agoDon’t you love when your arg dashes get autocorrected to emdashes? And by love I mean hate with the fiery passion of a thousand suns.
- hamburglar 4mo agoAgreed. On an iPhone that’s the easiest way to type an em dash and consequently the easiest way to fuck up trying to write out a command line example.
- audreyfei 4mo agosame, or I use a semicolon
- SmashDan 4mo agosemi-colon will have me thinking you've typed up your comment in Microsoft Word
- DonHopkins 4mo agoI use a semistoma due to medical reasons.
- 4mo ago
- brookst 4mo agoIt’s fine to use em-dashes — just be srre to add typos.
- theK 4mo agoWhat is the typical motivation to start using em-dashes? Why go the extra way to have a slightly elongated dash when a normal one would just as well do the job? I might be conpletely off here but I've never seen a situation where using a normal dash where a long one should be causes any sort of syntactic trouble.
- Macha 4mo agoIt looks aesthetically nicer. It was also a bit of a signal that someone took pride in their work and so helped that way. It's a bit like whether your tradesperson cleans up after themselves. Technically sweeping up the dust after installing a kitchen cabinet doesn't actually mean anything for the quality of the kitchen cabinet installation, but in practice putting the effort into the presentation correlates with putting the effort into the actual work.
- theK 4mo agoI understand the sentiment with the tradesman example. I would argue that there are a multitude of ways to care about or take pride in one's trade and emdashing the floor is just one of them.
- derwiki 4mo agoAn emdash means something different than shorter dashes https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/em-dash-en-dash-how-to-use https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/em-dash-en-dash-how-...
- fragmede 4mo agoi mean why use punctuation or any capitals at all, why not just blast words out in a stream of consciousness so readers know how yr thinking why even bother with speeling things write Just because you don't care to use the proper dash doesn't mean everyone else doesn't. People have different levels of caring about different details. For the sticklers, there's even a special code point for ellipsis, … rather than .... (Four being correct, as one is to end the sentence.) Personally I'll just skip — entirely unless I'm in a trolling mood, though “sometimes” the right quotes are worth using. Special characters are easy to type on a phone soft keyboard, taking a long press on the relevant key, or if you're using any other advanced input system, so they shouldn't really be considered to be the mark of LLM input. The real trouble is that people doing engage with the substance of the post anymore, and just shallowly dismiss a post as being vibe written, as if that makes any points raised invalid. Anti-intellectualism's always been cool among a certain crowd. Shame to see it spread but ah well, the propaganda's working.
- DrewADesign 4mo agoI don’t give a flying fuck what people think. Most colleges copied or adopted my (for a few semesters) school’s style guide, so LLMs are essentially copying me, and I won’t change my punctuation usage because they suck.
- tormeh 4mo agoThe purpose of good writing style has always been to signal education and class. Well, your style no longer does. The future is now.
- DrewADesign 4mo ago> The purpose of good writing style has always been to signal education and class Sure, that’s why there have never been any authors that became famous despite being poor and deliberately writing with that affect. Good writing style does connote good education, and in environments where being upper-class bolsters social standing, some people flaunt it to signify class, as they would with any other wealth signifier, like expansive shoes. I am a union tradesman— the third generation to work in manufacturing in this area. Affecting an upper-class identity diminishes social standing in my environment. Having a lot of money, definitely doesn’t. My dirty work boots probably cost as much as many of the trendiest shoes on the market, and the guys at work know that and admire them… but my wearing them doesn’t signify class. Similarly, you can use good writing style in a way that shows you went to a good school and paid attention without wearing it like a Harvard Business School fleece.
- paulhebert 4mo agoThe purpose of good writing style is to communicate more effectively. Sometimes you’re trying to communicate education or class. Often that’s not the main goal.
- shakna 4mo agoShakespeare was written for the masses. Hence being full of dick jokes. Similar story for Chaucer, and so many others. I don't think good writing, things we appreciate so much it lasts generations, has much to do with signalling education or class.
- DonHopkins 4mo agoI'm a secret invisible ­ soft hypenator. I like to break words in whacky places that change their meaning only when they need to be broken. Like Democ­rats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_hyphen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_hyphen It's a perverted expression of hidden passive aggression.
- sva_ 4mo agoI propose that humans use Unicode U+2E3B three em dash ⸻ it is an impressively long character.
- deadbabe 4mo agolet’s market it as “human dash” And if it ever catches on with LLMs ⸻⸻ we just make it longer
- fragmede 4mo agoJust write —(human)— to denote that a human wrote the dash. Just be sure to instruct your LLM to write —(LLM)— so readers know the difference.
- omoikane 4mo ago> U+2E3B three em dash I had to look up why this exists, and apparently it was added in Unicode 6.1 (2012) because some style guide required it, and using consecutive U+2014 em dashes isn't sufficient because that might not render as one continuous line. https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2010/10037r-longdashes.pdf https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2010/10037r-longdashes.pdf
- mokre 4mo agoLets just use random number of dashes.
- Dumblydorr 4mo agoIt’s so they don’t train on AI data, right?
- nativeit 4mo agoI still use them frequently. On iOS you just tap the hyphen twice, and it inserts an em dash—sorta like that.
- timcobb 4mo agoThe question is whether the m-dashes are surrounded by spaces or not. The spaces are utterly maddening. But yeah, RIP the mdash, who would have thought.
- nonethewiser 4mo agoThe thing is, in lots of contexts you cant easily type em dashes. Google docs will convert “—-“ to an emdash but simple text inputs wont. So when you see one in that context you have to consider the explanation. They copy pasted an em dash specifically, they drafted in Google docs, they know the unicode keyboard shortcut, etc. None of these are safe assumptions. And if it’s markdown you know it wasnt drafted in Google docs.
- eschatology 4mo agoin macos it is trivial to input em dash in any context
- sheept 4mo agoOn Windows and Mac you can input an em dash anywhere with shift+windows+hyphen / shift+option+hyphen, respectively
- cik 4mo agoI'm still waiting for the interrabang to become compromised as well. They've already taken my em dash, and my use of the Oxford command, apparently, is an insant flag.
- wil421 4mo agoHow many college kids are going to be flagged for using an em dash?
- VCFundedGenYer 4mo agoTo me em dashes have always just been an annoyance. For example, Word and OneNote were (and likely still are) very keen on converting every dash to an em-dash by default, and I frequently find myself needing to immediately undo that.