4 ms·

Technically the US government is allowing Anthropic to serve the models to any US citizen, and it's Anthropic who decided that's impossible to comply with and s

Technically the US government is allowing Anthropic to serve the models to any US citizen, and it's Anthropic who decided that's impossible to comply with and so they pulled the model for everyone. I guess a US business with non-citizen employees could work. A lawsuit would be a hard sell though, because Anthropic themselves argued that the technology is dangerous. Even if many people on HN might think that Anthropic was scaremongering about Mythos, a court is probably going to take their assessment at face value, and courts are loathe to find against governments in cases of national security. There's also the issue that these models are getting better through an iterative process, so even if the line between GPT 5.5 and Fable/GPT 5.6 is somewhat arbitrary, it doesn't mean that the government shouldn't be able to draw a line at all. So you're left arguing that they drew the line too early, which is subjective.

wahnfrieden 4mo ago
Are you certain? Trump admin is hand-picking GPT 5.6 winners
- zarzavat 4mo ago
  The Government's position is that Anthropic/OpenAI are forbidden from allowing non-US citizens use the models. This is impossible in reality because how can Anthropic know that the person sitting behind a Claude code session or API key is at any given moment a US citizen? You can check their ID on signup but how can they know that they didn't give their credentials to someone else to use? They can't. Given the impossibility of compliance, what Anthropic and OpenAI are doing is working with the government to release it to certain organizations with the government's blessing. If this were about missiles and not AI models, nobody would question this turn of events. If the government said that nobody can export this missile or allow non-citizens access to the missile, and then they started giving permission for certain organizations to handle the missile, that would be normal, not picking winners. The only reason people are questioning it in this case is because they believe that these models are not dangerous enough to deserve these kinds of export controls. Personally I'd agree that in my 3 days of using Fable I didn't observe any superpowers. Unfortunately however, Anthropic undermined that argument by claiming that Mythos is highly dangerous, which set them up for any jailbreak of Fable to be considered a national security risk. Who is a court going to believe? Someone who used a model for 3 days? Or the government and the people who made that model?
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - quietfox 4mo ago
    Comparing AI models with missiles is a far fetch as long as citizenship is the single qualifier used to decide who’s allowed to be a customer. This is not a security related policy, it’s about strategically controlled economic power.
    - andsoitis 4mo ago
      > This is not a security related policy, it’s about strategically controlled economic power. It is both. The US and China are locked in an AI arms race with economics and security intertwined, given the perceived power of the trajectory of frontier AI models.
    - jandrewrogers 4mo ago
      This has a long history and the US government are not completely stupid. They understand that some cornerstone technologies are high leverage even if they are not per se directly militarily relevant. Some classic examples of this, on which the US places severe export controls, was advanced materials science and inertial navigation technology. Neither of these are weapons but advanced technology in these domains greatly enables the development of advanced weapons. Any work in these areas is automatically subject to the full export control regime. In extreme cases they may be nationalized and classified. AI tech is becoming just another tech domain subject to the same level of scrutiny. I’m not making a moral judgement. This was always going to be the reality and a lot of people could see it coming.
      - snovv_crash 4mo ago
        Another one is thermal vision cameras. Anything above 9fps (I guess an arbitrary cutoff to do with night-vision goggles) is export controlled. This is despite the technology being very valuable for many industrial and hobby applications.
naturalmovement 4mo ago
> I guess a US business with non-citizen employees could work. No. Only if those employees have a green card and the company must not only take on that responsibility but ensure other employees are denied access. Otherwise the company would be subject to millions in fines. US export laws are no fuckin' joke like everyone here seems to think they are. It's really frustrating to read pages of comments rooted in emotion and no understanding of the existing laws.
- zarzavat 4mo ago
  That was in reference to whether anyone outside of Anthropic might be able to have standing to sue at all, not the merits of the case.
- hagemt 4mo ago
  > It's really frustrating to read pages of comments rooted in emotion and no understanding of the existing laws. I read your frustration. Try to let go of the fact that there are many smart people who aren't experts in legal affairs. Cite eCFR if they're wrong, and move on. As much as they don't know the rules, you don't know their situation. For all you know, the subscriber may be a US Citizen + Delaware C Corp owner.
  - naturalmovement 4mo ago
    At some point it becomes willful ignorance of history. I remember a time not very long ago when everyday crypto like 128-bit SSL was restricted under US export law. The old web browsers came in separate, "exportable" versions. [1] Phil Zimmermann was in big trouble for releasing PGP. That was the mid-90s. Clinton was President so this stuff transcends politics. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Netscape_Navigator_1.1_for_Macintosh_Install_Disk.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Netscape_Navigator_1.1_fo...
    - edukite 4mo ago
      Yes, because US CIA and NSA was hacking half of the World. You can learn about this in Cybersecurity books. This is different situation. Cybersecurity specialists (at least those I found and read) don't consider Mythos as something really powerful. Good tool but not groundbreaking. Anthropic was playing terror game and burned by it
IshKebab 4mo ago
> Anthropic themselves argued that the technology is dangerous They said Mythos was dangerous, not Fable which is what got banned.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- LoganDark 4mo ago
  "Mythos-class models" were banned, which includes both Fable and Mythos itself.
- zarzavat 4mo ago
  Fable = Mythos + guardrails Fable + jailbreak = Mythos
re-thc 4mo ago
> Technically the US government is allowing Anthropic to serve the models to any US citizen, and it's Anthropic who decided that's impossible to comply with It is technically impossible. Many of the researchers working on the models aren't US citizens. That's not just within Anthropic. It'd make things 100% worse.
- player1234 4mo ago
  [dead]
- polski-g 4mo ago
  Lockheed Martin is able to restrict access of their product details to only us citizens. It's not impossible, it's just hard.
  - re-thc 4mo ago
    > Lockheed Martin is able to restrict access of their product details to only us citizens. The US government has stated that the US is very behind in manufacturing of military equipment vs e.g. China (in terms of scale and speed). So if your example is gimp it then sure it's possible.
    - polski-g 4mo ago
      Not every government law is wise or good. But it's still the law.
    - A_D_E_P_T 4mo ago
      For just this reason, dialing back ITAR export restrictions has been on the agenda for nearly a decade. > https://calibremag.ca/trump-preparing-to-roll-back-itar-export-restrictions/ https://calibremag.ca/trump-preparing-to-roll-back-itar-expo... It hasn't yet happened. And, as things stand right now, nobody in their right mind wants to work in a business beholden to ITAR. Strong export controls will kill American AI.
  - itopaloglu83 4mo ago
llelouch 4mo ago
>Anthropic themselves argued that the technology is dangerous. They never released mythos 5 to the general public. And they never will.
- A_D_E_P_T 4mo ago
  Never is a long time. When open models catch up in 4-12 months, they might change their minds.

wahnfrieden 4mo ago

Are you certain? Trump admin is hand-picking GPT 5.6 winners

zarzavat 4mo ago
The Government's position is that Anthropic/OpenAI are forbidden from allowing non-US citizens use the models. This is impossible in reality because how can Anthropic know that the person sitting behind a Claude code session or API key is at any given moment a US citizen? You can check their ID on signup but how can they know that they didn't give their credentials to someone else to use? They can't. Given the impossibility of compliance, what Anthropic and OpenAI are doing is working with the government to release it to certain organizations with the government's blessing. If this were about missiles and not AI models, nobody would question this turn of events. If the government said that nobody can export this missile or allow non-citizens access to the missile, and then they started giving permission for certain organizations to handle the missile, that would be normal, not picking winners. The only reason people are questioning it in this case is because they believe that these models are not dangerous enough to deserve these kinds of export controls. Personally I'd agree that in my 3 days of using Fable I didn't observe any superpowers. Unfortunately however, Anthropic undermined that argument by claiming that Mythos is highly dangerous, which set them up for any jailbreak of Fable to be considered a national security risk. Who is a court going to believe? Someone who used a model for 3 days? Or the government and the people who made that model?
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- quietfox 4mo ago
  Comparing AI models with missiles is a far fetch as long as citizenship is the single qualifier used to decide who’s allowed to be a customer. This is not a security related policy, it’s about strategically controlled economic power.
  - andsoitis 4mo ago
    > This is not a security related policy, it’s about strategically controlled economic power. It is both. The US and China are locked in an AI arms race with economics and security intertwined, given the perceived power of the trajectory of frontier AI models.
  - jandrewrogers 4mo ago
    This has a long history and the US government are not completely stupid. They understand that some cornerstone technologies are high leverage even if they are not per se directly militarily relevant. Some classic examples of this, on which the US places severe export controls, was advanced materials science and inertial navigation technology. Neither of these are weapons but advanced technology in these domains greatly enables the development of advanced weapons. Any work in these areas is automatically subject to the full export control regime. In extreme cases they may be nationalized and classified. AI tech is becoming just another tech domain subject to the same level of scrutiny. I’m not making a moral judgement. This was always going to be the reality and a lot of people could see it coming.
    - snovv_crash 4mo ago
      Another one is thermal vision cameras. Anything above 9fps (I guess an arbitrary cutoff to do with night-vision goggles) is export controlled. This is despite the technology being very valuable for many industrial and hobby applications.

naturalmovement 4mo ago

> I guess a US business with non-citizen employees could work. No. Only if those employees have a green card and the company must not only take on that responsibility but ensure other employees are denied access. Otherwise the company would be subject to millions in fines. US export laws are no fuckin' joke like everyone here seems to think they are. It's really frustrating to read pages of comments rooted in emotion and no understanding of the existing laws.

zarzavat 4mo ago
That was in reference to whether anyone outside of Anthropic might be able to have standing to sue at all, not the merits of the case.
hagemt 4mo ago
> It's really frustrating to read pages of comments rooted in emotion and no understanding of the existing laws. I read your frustration. Try to let go of the fact that there are many smart people who aren't experts in legal affairs. Cite eCFR if they're wrong, and move on. As much as they don't know the rules, you don't know their situation. For all you know, the subscriber may be a US Citizen + Delaware C Corp owner.
- naturalmovement 4mo ago
  At some point it becomes willful ignorance of history. I remember a time not very long ago when everyday crypto like 128-bit SSL was restricted under US export law. The old web browsers came in separate, "exportable" versions. [1] Phil Zimmermann was in big trouble for releasing PGP. That was the mid-90s. Clinton was President so this stuff transcends politics. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Netscape_Navigator_1.1_for_Macintosh_Install_Disk.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Netscape_Navigator_1.1_fo...
  - edukite 4mo ago
    Yes, because US CIA and NSA was hacking half of the World. You can learn about this in Cybersecurity books. This is different situation. Cybersecurity specialists (at least those I found and read) don't consider Mythos as something really powerful. Good tool but not groundbreaking. Anthropic was playing terror game and burned by it

IshKebab 4mo ago

> Anthropic themselves argued that the technology is dangerous They said Mythos was dangerous, not Fable which is what got banned.

deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
LoganDark 4mo ago
"Mythos-class models" were banned, which includes both Fable and Mythos itself.
zarzavat 4mo ago
Fable = Mythos + guardrails Fable + jailbreak = Mythos

re-thc 4mo ago

> Technically the US government is allowing Anthropic to serve the models to any US citizen, and it's Anthropic who decided that's impossible to comply with It is technically impossible. Many of the researchers working on the models aren't US citizens. That's not just within Anthropic. It'd make things 100% worse.

player1234 4mo ago
[dead]
polski-g 4mo ago
Lockheed Martin is able to restrict access of their product details to only us citizens. It's not impossible, it's just hard.
- re-thc 4mo ago
  > Lockheed Martin is able to restrict access of their product details to only us citizens. The US government has stated that the US is very behind in manufacturing of military equipment vs e.g. China (in terms of scale and speed). So if your example is gimp it then sure it's possible.
  - polski-g 4mo ago
    Not every government law is wise or good. But it's still the law.
  - A_D_E_P_T 4mo ago
    For just this reason, dialing back ITAR export restrictions has been on the agenda for nearly a decade. > https://calibremag.ca/trump-preparing-to-roll-back-itar-export-restrictions/ https://calibremag.ca/trump-preparing-to-roll-back-itar-expo... It hasn't yet happened. And, as things stand right now, nobody in their right mind wants to work in a business beholden to ITAR. Strong export controls will kill American AI.
- itopaloglu83 4mo ago

llelouch 4mo ago

>Anthropic themselves argued that the technology is dangerous. They never released mythos 5 to the general public. And they never will.

A_D_E_P_T 4mo ago
Never is a long time. When open models catch up in 4-12 months, they might change their minds.