4 ms·

I don't understand why people think they should be able to vote on things like this. Especially when they lack the necessary credentials to have an informed opi

by esikich 4mo ago

I don't understand why people think they should be able to vote on things like this. Especially when they lack the necessary credentials to have an informed opinion on it.

_doctor_love 4mo ago
I mean, why do we let people without property vote in the first place? It's really only people with a vested interest who have something at stake.
- esikich 4mo ago
  Who said anything about property?
  - dwb 4mo ago
    You are using the same logic as those who kept the franchise restricted to the property-owning class. Parent is rightly mocking you for it.
    - esikich 4mo ago
      Did you vote for the new McDonalds that got built? The new strip mall? The new apartment complex? The new water treatment plant that makes noise and stinks? The new metal shop? The new gas station? Let's start voting on everything and see how that goes. But we obviously don't because that's fucking stupid.
      - dwb 4mo ago
        I don’t think dismissing direct democracy as “fucking stupid” is the kind of constructive commentary this site is after. It’s a complex issue and I wouldn’t advocate for it claiming it would fix everything, but in the representative democracy that we (supposedly) have, and the representatives that we tend to get, often cowed or corrupted by huge corporate interests, is it surprising that people want to take some influence back into their own hands? I’m not ever going to be against that kind of democracy.
        ghaff 4mo ago
        And, in fact, the town where I live in the northeast does have a lot of issues voted on in town meetings by the residents who attend. Not every little detail certainly. But zoning changes, budgets, etc. yes. (Not that our infrastructure would presumably support one but I'd expect a datacenter proposal would be voted down.)
        dwb 4mo ago
        Glad to hear it!
      - tzs 4mo ago
        The McD, strip mall, metal shop, and gas station will all be going into places that were long ago zoned for that kind of business, had all the necessary infrastructure to support such business installed long ago, and won't bring any new significant quality of life issues to people who live or work nearby. They also generally aren't asking for special tax breaks. The water treatment plant often will be voted on, because it will often be financed by a bond issue or levy that requires voter approval. The apartment complex is the only one that doesn't fall into either of those types of projects, and this is one that gets exceptions because it is to solve a problem the local area is having by directly addressing that problem. They need more nearby housing, so they make exceptions for housing projects. Not many towns have found their AI needs are hard to meet because of the latency over the internet to their AI provider's datacenter, and so need to get a local datacenter built.
sanid 4mo ago
So what are the topics people should be able to vote on? I don't think people have the necessary credentials to vote on immigration, drug price regulation, social media regulation? Why let people vote at all, they don't know anything apparently.
- hammock 4mo ago
  How about the nuclear button? I’m curious where you personally draw the line.
  - defrost 4mo ago
    Using a nuclear strike first on the whim of an individual POTUS? First use should be heavily debated and almost always avoided. In response to {immediate pressing life threatening conditions at scale} .. they can be discussed and game planned well in advance and voted on - even if that vote is limited to a large pool with a breadth of military and diplomatic experience. The current US practice of "POTUS can, like, do whatever" is pretty tragic.
  - freejazz 4mo ago
    >How about the nuclear button? We do every 4 years
- esikich 4mo ago
  You vote for people you can trust to build a knowledgeable team to make decisions for you. Direct democracy would be idiotic. Do you vote on every new business that gets created? Every building that gets erected?
  - _DeadFred_ 4mo ago
    In a way yes. We've had local elections with candidates main driver being getting areas rezoned. Or getting downtown redeveloped.

by esikich 4mo ago

I don't understand why people think they should be able to vote on things like this. Especially when they lack the necessary credentials to have an informed opinion on it.

_doctor_love 4mo ago

I mean, why do we let people without property vote in the first place? It's really only people with a vested interest who have something at stake.

esikich 4mo ago
Who said anything about property?
- dwb 4mo ago
  You are using the same logic as those who kept the franchise restricted to the property-owning class. Parent is rightly mocking you for it.
  - esikich 4mo ago
    Did you vote for the new McDonalds that got built? The new strip mall? The new apartment complex? The new water treatment plant that makes noise and stinks? The new metal shop? The new gas station? Let's start voting on everything and see how that goes. But we obviously don't because that's fucking stupid.
    - dwb 4mo ago
      I don’t think dismissing direct democracy as “fucking stupid” is the kind of constructive commentary this site is after. It’s a complex issue and I wouldn’t advocate for it claiming it would fix everything, but in the representative democracy that we (supposedly) have, and the representatives that we tend to get, often cowed or corrupted by huge corporate interests, is it surprising that people want to take some influence back into their own hands? I’m not ever going to be against that kind of democracy.
      - ghaff 4mo ago
        And, in fact, the town where I live in the northeast does have a lot of issues voted on in town meetings by the residents who attend. Not every little detail certainly. But zoning changes, budgets, etc. yes. (Not that our infrastructure would presumably support one but I'd expect a datacenter proposal would be voted down.)
        dwb 4mo ago
        Glad to hear it!
    - tzs 4mo ago
      The McD, strip mall, metal shop, and gas station will all be going into places that were long ago zoned for that kind of business, had all the necessary infrastructure to support such business installed long ago, and won't bring any new significant quality of life issues to people who live or work nearby. They also generally aren't asking for special tax breaks. The water treatment plant often will be voted on, because it will often be financed by a bond issue or levy that requires voter approval. The apartment complex is the only one that doesn't fall into either of those types of projects, and this is one that gets exceptions because it is to solve a problem the local area is having by directly addressing that problem. They need more nearby housing, so they make exceptions for housing projects. Not many towns have found their AI needs are hard to meet because of the latency over the internet to their AI provider's datacenter, and so need to get a local datacenter built.

sanid 4mo ago

So what are the topics people should be able to vote on? I don't think people have the necessary credentials to vote on immigration, drug price regulation, social media regulation? Why let people vote at all, they don't know anything apparently.

hammock 4mo ago
How about the nuclear button? I’m curious where you personally draw the line.
- defrost 4mo ago
  Using a nuclear strike first on the whim of an individual POTUS? First use should be heavily debated and almost always avoided. In response to {immediate pressing life threatening conditions at scale} .. they can be discussed and game planned well in advance and voted on - even if that vote is limited to a large pool with a breadth of military and diplomatic experience. The current US practice of "POTUS can, like, do whatever" is pretty tragic.
- freejazz 4mo ago
  >How about the nuclear button? We do every 4 years
esikich 4mo ago
You vote for people you can trust to build a knowledgeable team to make decisions for you. Direct democracy would be idiotic. Do you vote on every new business that gets created? Every building that gets erected?
- _DeadFred_ 4mo ago
  In a way yes. We've had local elections with candidates main driver being getting areas rezoned. Or getting downtown redeveloped.