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Wikipedia Workers to Seek Union Recognition
https://utaw.tech/news/wikipedia-recognition https://utaw.tech/news/wikipedia-recognition
- Animats 3mo agoThe announcement says both Wikipedia workers in Britain are setting a “global first” by becoming the first body of workers at the online encyclopaedia to seek union recognition. and Outside the United States, the United Kingdom is WMF’s largest employment location, and a substantial majority of its UK staff are union members. Something is inconsistent here. Are they trying to unionize people who edit Wikipedia for free?
- ymhr 3mo agoI think it’s the WMF employees who are unionising, as in salaried employees.
- kennywinker 3mo agoI read that as the majority of wikimedia employees in the uk have joined the union, but the union has yet to be recognized by the company with a collective agreement.
- CaliforniaKarl 3mo agoThere are other lines in the post that, to me, provide clarity. First is this, the second paragraph: > British-based employees at the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) wrote a letter to management today (Wednesday 24thJune) requesting their right to be represented by the United Tech and Allied Workers (UTAW) section of the Communication Workers Union (CWU). That makes it clear that this is regarding the "British-based employees at the Wikimedia Foundation". Yes, the headline does say "Wikipedia": I expect the CWU chose that because many more folks know what Wikipedia is, vs. the Wikimedia foundation. Second is this: > Over 1000 Wikimedia volunteers and community members have also signed petitions in support of the workers, who have networked globally under the banner of Wiki Workers United (WWU). I view terms like "[wikipedia] editors" as terms of art: "Editor" in the Wikipedia context maps to the more-generic "volunteer" in the broader context, which is why the post is referring here to "volunteers and community members". So, I don't see any inconsistency in the article, but I see how the current post title can make it confusing. In my opinion, I think it would be appropriate for you to email the HN folks, to ask the title be changed to something like "Wikimedia Foundation Workers to Seek Union Recognition".
- isamuel 3mo agoYou can be a member of a labor union without that union being recognized as your exclusive bargaining representative for a certain employer (or whatever unit).
- jl6 3mo agoHave the WMF done something bad that needs counterbalancing or are they just forming a union out of some sort of principle?
- fzeroracer 3mo agoThey recently laid off an internal team that was popular among workers and also fired one of the oldest employees for dubious reasons. Notably all of the people laid off or fired were union advocates, so this can be seen as a supercharged reaction to an effort to union bust (whether it was or not, it was certainly perceived that way).
- jordanb 3mo agoThe team was popular among contributors/editors. Their entire job was to handle the most upvited issues from the community and they were formed after the community felt like the management's priorities we not aligned with the community. So like, the community was angry management was ignoring them. The response was to create a group to ensure some engineering time was put towards community priorities. Now that group has been fired.
- anothermathbozo 3mo agounions are institutions for bargaining power, even under decent employers
- gopher_space 3mo agoYes but people generally don't bother with them under decent employers.
- hungryhobbit 3mo agoMan, it's sad how far the wiki foundation has fallen. For (literally) decades no one there would have even thought of forming a union! To get them to not only consider it, but actually go through the effort of actually doing it ... the foundation truly has shit the bed.
- nickff 3mo agoWikipedia has a lot of money, along with a valuable dataset (for AI); it was only a matter of time until rent-seeker(s) would come along and try to get it. As we saw with OpenAI, it is difficult to keep a non-profit dedicated to its public benefit mission when it has something of tantalizing value.
- kennywinker 3mo ago> it was only a matter of time until rent-seeker(s) would come along and try to get it. So, the people who helped create the valuable dataset are “rent seekers” now? Must be using a different definition of rent seeking than any i’ve heard.
- oh_no 3mo agoFoundation didn't create the dataset, just the framework for volunteers to do the work.
- kennywinker 3mo agoYes, and? Could the dataset have been created without the framework?
- nickff 3mo agoThe employees of the Wikipedia foundation did not create the dataset, though they definitely contributed to the infrastructure behind it. Sam Altman (and the OpenAI employees) contributed even more to OpenAI's continuing success (and that of their industry). Both groups are still rent-seekers, as they are attempting to profit off a market position which was developed under different auspices.
- spoaceman7777 3mo agoWow, they're on a roll over there. Just two days ago they permanently banned the cofounder of Wikipedia, Larry Sanger. Per his tweet: "Well, that’s that—I’ve been blocked by Wikipedia “indefinitely” for unstated reasons, by the “consensus” of a mob. There was no due process, no prosecutor, no dispassionate judge, no jury, no interpretation of law. All my judges were self-selected and hated me." Link to his June 22nd tweet on the matter: https://x.com/lsanger/status/2069061483422425287 https://x.com/lsanger/status/2069061483422425287
- _djo_ 3mo agoWhile the merits of Sanger's banning are worth debating, Sanger is dishonestly representing the process here. The reasons, rather than being 'unstated', were stated repeatedly and were not unreasonable. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents/Possible_off-wiki_canvassing_by_User:Larry_Sanger#Possible_off-wiki_canvassing_by_User:Larry_Sanger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_no...
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- Telaneo 3mo agoIt was even directly linked to in the post on his talk page, that he took a screenshot of. Hardly unstated. To be fair, there's a lot of text in that thread, but that is pretty unavoidable if the accusations have any sort of merit. He also actively participated in it, so he's probably actually read the majority of it.
- wqaatwt 3mo agoMaybe the implication here is that supposedly the real reasons are personal/political and the stated ones are just the justification?
- _djo_ 3mo agoThen he should justify that. When I read through the discussion though it seems that the stated reasons were arguably sufficient to justify the action taken. Sanger has been given a lot more leeway over the years, because of his status as a co-founder, than anyone else would have been given.
- bwestergard 3mo agoThis made my day. These workers will be better stewards of Wikipedia than management.
- yogthos 3mo agoIt took people in tech an inordinately long time to start finally realizing the value of collective bargaining.
- declan_roberts 3mo agoBetween AI and H1b, it might be too late.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- metaworkers11 3mo agowe should form a Union at Meta!
- declan_roberts 3mo agoI've been mostly resistant to unionization for my whole career, but I think now is the right time. Between AI and H1B, the pool of jobs available for engineers is getting smaller and smaller, especially at the low end. When you destroy the entry level position, you also destroy the pipeline that creates senior engineers, a shortage of which is used as leverage to increase H1B in America.
- kaikai 3mo agoNow may be the right time to HAVE a union, but the time to unionize was when engineers had more power. That same soft job market means we have much less leverage to unionize than we used to.
- fluoridation 3mo ago>When you destroy the entry level position, you also destroy the pipeline that creates senior engineers, a shortage of which is used as leverage to increase H1B in America. It's okay, the same is happening across the board, everywhere. Companies are engineering their own labor shortage 10-20 years from now.
- anothermathbozo 3mo agoCan you say more about why you are resistant to unionization
- declan_roberts 3mo agoI was getting a fat raise every year. I didn't think I needed it from a first principle.
- pKropotkin 3mo ago[flagged]
- ggm 3mo agoSeems entirely reasonable and I would hope will be accepted as such by the management.
- Frieren 3mo agoThere is no reason for any employee to not search for unionization. It is your right and it is in your best interest. Good for them.
- sevenzero 3mo agoI work in a 2 man company, for sure a Union will have many advantages for me x)
- iso1631 3mo agoAside from legal support, advice, and contributing to industry influence?
- Telaneo 3mo agoWhat have the Romans ever done for us?
- iso1631 3mo agoMy union does very little for me directly. Neither does my house or car insurance. I've never needed either. Indirectly though my union does do stuff I'm sure Alec Baldwin was happy he was a member of a union to represent him.
- bpt3 3mo ago> I'm sure Alec Baldwin was happy he was a member of a union to represent him. Why is it that so many union supporters point to entities like SAG and professional athlete unions in the US when advocating for unions, when they are a massive exception to the norm? I would join a union like SAG. I have zero interest in being forced to make contributions to a political organization who has a passing interest in my well-being at best and is structured to benefit below-average workers.
- apelapan 3mo agoAre you just an employee or also an owner in that company? If you are an employee only, having a union to back you up could be extremely useful if things ever go bad.
- metalman 3mo ago[flagged]
- philipallstar 3mo ago> The workers are longtime contributors and organisers, and are deeply committed to the Wikimedia movement. It always starts this way, and ends with over half the people not bothered but still under union protection, and cannot be removed.
- jonkoops 3mo agoAhhh the American mindset.
- throwaway93135 3mo agoImagine how high must those salaries be in union-prolific Euro nations, compared to the measly ones of those uncivilized Americans!
- RandomLensman 3mo agoHourly wages in Germany are not that different from the US. Depends a bit on how exactly to compare - nominal, PPP, net/gross, etc.: e.g., average nominal is about 10% higher in the US, real median is higher in Germnay, ...
- throwaway93135 3mo agoOverlooking that we are comparing the richest EU state to all 50 US states, doesn't that further the point that having unions is are at best uninfluential.
- RandomLensman 3mo agoNo. (And comparing one country to another seems fine anyway.) Hard to make the case that unions in Germany have had no effects on wages, working time, etc.
- tovej 3mo agoReal wages are higher in every EU country with strong unions.
- JdeBP 3mo agoThis is the same press release from the union as at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48663861 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48663861, and the same discussion points apply as there, including the fact that the press release is conflating 'Wikipedia Workers' and 'British-based employees at the Wikimedia Foundation'. The two are not the same. This conflation appears to be the fault of the union. Certainly the people who write Wikipedia well know the difference between themselves and the Wikimedia Foundation staff.
- throw93949444 3mo agoSeems like a loophole not to employ people. "Editor" sounds like a job title! There is code of conduct, all sort of paperwork, you have to deal with comitees, editorial process... There is non disclosure agreement, you are not allowed to discus internal stuff with people outside from company... wery far from "i seen something was wrong, so i just made quick edit"! Smells like proper job to me! We closed the same loophole with uber and doordash employees. Wikimedia should employ its editors!!!
- weberer 3mo ago>There is non disclosure agreement No there is not. You don't have to sign anything to make edits to Wikipedia. On the other hand, these people are full employees with work contracts.
- throw93949444 3mo agoThere is like 50 page agreement, you even have to give up your copyright rights! The only way to do it legally in my country, is to hire editor as an employee!!! (Contractors can not legally give up copyright to their work) https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy:Terms_of_Use https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy:Terms_of_Use
- francisdavey 3mo agoYou license your contributions under an open licence. You don't give up your copyright. There would be no other sensible way to operate a collaborative encyclopedia without a license of this kind. I (lawyer) have never encountered a jurisdiction where a contractor could not license their work under the contract with their employer (the person contracting them).
- christkv 3mo agoUnions at least in the European setting not really effective in protecting workers in the way people seem to imagine. The labor laws are somewhat but not really. It just increases the cost of getting rid of people and reduces mobility. So i don’t know what utopian view people have of unions but reality does not reflect that. It also leads to a salaried class of union representatives inside big companies that causes their own problems as they are the ones granting favors and benefits to their friends.
- chobeat 3mo agoGuess how those labor laws were achieved. Spoiler: unions. Same as weekends, 40-hour work week and so on. Strong unions win laws.
- christkv 3mo agoI don't dispute that unions were important and offer some sort of benefit. What I don't like is that most of the big unions in Europe receive a lot of governmental money and become lobbying groups for political parties. I would not consider them independent in any sense of the word.
- Ylpertnodi 3mo agoAs a union member - my union can fuck off. Dirty back-door deals, scratchy-back 'allowances', management collusion... But, we went on strike, got a pay rise, my disciplinaries were found to be baseless, I got a pay rise they hid from us. Swings and roundabouts, but I have got two people fired -it takes time, and it's done correctly. Or the law gets involved. I'll take a shitty union over not.
- tremon 3mo agoBut that's exactly what a union is: a lobbying group that strives for a better outcome on behalf of its members. "Independence" is not part of their job description. Why wouldn't they talk to politicians, or even publicly support the political parties that are more aligned with their goals? Or do you believe that is a privilege to be reserved only for the rich?
- pKropotkin 3mo agoUnion of deletionists and corruptioneers?
- henry2023 3mo agoYou can go read Grokipedia instead.
- logicchains 3mo agoThey should join forces with the Stack Overflow moderators for a true deletionists union.
- bhartipoddar 3mo agohope will accepted by the management
- quater321 3mo ago[dead]
- throw93949444 3mo agoIn EU I would form union even at 3 person company. There are all sorts of tax benefits. Union fees are usually exempt from tax and social and health insurance. In my country we make dinner (yearly union meeting), produce meeting notes and get about 50 euro per employee. Union also organizes trips for families, tax free... Worth asking AI about local lawx...
- klez 3mo ago> In EU Where, exactly? > Union fees are usually exempt from tax What do you mean? You pay taxes on other membership fees?
- Martinussen 3mo agoAs in you can subtract it from your taxable income, I assume. I think it's fairly normal (in this part of the world*).
- throw93949444 3mo agoIn germany and poland. Yes, you pay income taxes (and insurances) on all membership fees like gym (about 50%). If you put money into union, and union pays your gym fees, you save tons of money. But there is tons of legal bs around unions. You need to structure it, like you are promoting socialism, and only reason to go into gym, is to smash capitalism!
- hulahoof 3mo agoWhatever happened to the deepmind union effort ?
- chobeat 3mo agothey are still in talks for recognition
- NooneAtAll3 3mo agowhat does recognition even mean? shouldn't main way of demanding recognition by a union just be a strike?
- crunchiepooker 3mo agoUnions don’t protect workers, many studies show they only take dues and give them to communists. They have receipts.
- billynomates 3mo ago[dead]
- chobeat 3mo agonot sure if AI psychosis or a simple scab
- 3997531578 3mo ago[dead]
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]