4 ms·

Photocopiers and printers have included anti-counterfeiting tech for decades, so there is precedent for this kind of thing. And this is addressing a real growin

by guelo 4mo ago

Photocopiers and printers have included anti-counterfeiting tech for decades, so there is precedent for this kind of thing. And this is addressing a real growing problem: https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/santa-rosa-167-guns-seized-cloverdale-suspected-ghost-gun-manufacturer-arrested/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/santa-rosa-167-gun... https://da.santaclaracounty.gov/da-task-force-seizes-ghost-gun-arsenal-san-jose-teen https://da.santaclaracounty.gov/da-task-force-seizes-ghost-g... https://www.vvng.com/3d-printed-firearm-recovered-after-man-with-a-gun-call-in-lucerne-valley-two-men-arrested/ https://www.vvng.com/3d-printed-firearm-recovered-after-man-...

mvdtnz 4mo ago
Until America bans actual guns I don't want to hear about the "growing problem" of 3D printed guns.
- greenavocado 4mo ago
  The establishment is desperate to create/maintain moats to maintain hegemony over society
- bluescrn 4mo ago
  Yeah, if it was the UK cracking down it'd make more sense, but IIRC the US already has more guns than people. And in places where guns are tightly regulated, most people couldn't get hold of ammo even if they did build a printed gun, so it's not a big problem. (And the bad guys just use kitchen knives)
gmueckl 4mo ago
But money counterfeiting is a different proposition: the printer is blocking exactly known patterns found on real currency. In fact, many bill designs incorporate patterns that are easily machine detectable for this purpose. Blocking the printing of parts of mechanisms is a completely different beast, because the functionality is only discernible after final assembly of the individual parts, which can be shaped in a variety of ways. Most of these parts are unique to guns or at least usable in other kinds of designs. E.g. the same trigger lever design could be used for a ghost gun or a nerf gun or a water pistol. So where would yiu draw the line of all the classifier sees is G code that combines support structures, the actual surfaces and infill of some arbitrary collection of parts? I'm against guns in generally, but this classification problem seems particularly ill posed and I don't want it to result in tamper-resistant printers stopping people from tinkering and taking the fun out of printing. The US should just outlaw the casual carrying of guns of individuals in public. That's not a violation of the second amendment.
alright2565 4mo ago
Here's a series of models, which of these is a gun part? https://imgur.com/a/p3UtJqW https://imgur.com/a/p3UtJqW Money anti-counterfeiting is trivial, it's just 5 dots arranged in a specific pattern. Deciding what is a gun part is impossible, even for an expert human.
- rpearl 4mo ago
  Can you send me these models? I would like to print and bring them to the next committee hearing. My senator is on that committee. I will also be bringing an ergonomic grip for my camera. My email is in my profile.
- SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
  I just fundamentally don't understand the idea that nobody's allowed to restrict firearms manufacturing unless they can solve complex riddles about the nature of parts. I understand that you perceive this to be a deep and interesting point, but to me it seems enragingly obtuse. Let's start with blacklisting DefCAD and iterate from there, what's wrong with that? Like, it's true that refrigerators don't maintain a completely uniform temperature, meaning there's some philosophical wiggle room in what it means for a health department to say that raw meat must be stored at 41F. But it would be absurd for a meatpacker to declare that this means food safety is "impossible", and outrageous for them to conclude that they're just not going to bother refrigerating their meat at all.
  - bluescrn 4mo ago
    How long until people get police showing up at their door because they tried to print something harmless but gun-shaped (like a light gun for retro games, or Nerf-style toys) and were flagged by the AI 'firearm detector'?
    - SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
      If you want to have a voice in how the regulation is implemented, perhaps you should offer suggestions for how to implement it better. That's how it works in most industries; legislators propose to enact regulation X, manufacturers respond that X would have undesirable consequences and Y would be better, and then they discuss to figure out how to best balance all the competing interests. For reasons that aren't entirely clear to me, firearms manufacturers seem to think they're entitled to instead stomp their feet and say "no, no regulation, you have to let me do whatever I want!". I'm never quite sure why they think this foot-stomping would be at all persuasive to people who don't manufacture firearms. Again, I imagine you don't see things this way and I'd be happy to learn more about what I've gotten wrong here.
rangestransform 4mo ago
Yellow dots doxxing me whenever I print something is equally despicable, client side scanning on my iPhone is equally despicable. Some crimes are not worth it to eliminate, and western liberal society should just accept that the optimal amount of crime is non zero.

by guelo 4mo ago

mvdtnz 4mo ago

Until America bans actual guns I don't want to hear about the "growing problem" of 3D printed guns.

greenavocado 4mo ago
The establishment is desperate to create/maintain moats to maintain hegemony over society
bluescrn 4mo ago
Yeah, if it was the UK cracking down it'd make more sense, but IIRC the US already has more guns than people. And in places where guns are tightly regulated, most people couldn't get hold of ammo even if they did build a printed gun, so it's not a big problem. (And the bad guys just use kitchen knives)

gmueckl 4mo ago

But money counterfeiting is a different proposition: the printer is blocking exactly known patterns found on real currency. In fact, many bill designs incorporate patterns that are easily machine detectable for this purpose. Blocking the printing of parts of mechanisms is a completely different beast, because the functionality is only discernible after final assembly of the individual parts, which can be shaped in a variety of ways. Most of these parts are unique to guns or at least usable in other kinds of designs. E.g. the same trigger lever design could be used for a ghost gun or a nerf gun or a water pistol. So where would yiu draw the line of all the classifier sees is G code that combines support structures, the actual surfaces and infill of some arbitrary collection of parts? I'm against guns in generally, but this classification problem seems particularly ill posed and I don't want it to result in tamper-resistant printers stopping people from tinkering and taking the fun out of printing. The US should just outlaw the casual carrying of guns of individuals in public. That's not a violation of the second amendment.

alright2565 4mo ago

Here's a series of models, which of these is a gun part? https://imgur.com/a/p3UtJqW https://imgur.com/a/p3UtJqW Money anti-counterfeiting is trivial, it's just 5 dots arranged in a specific pattern. Deciding what is a gun part is impossible, even for an expert human.

rpearl 4mo ago
Can you send me these models? I would like to print and bring them to the next committee hearing. My senator is on that committee. I will also be bringing an ergonomic grip for my camera. My email is in my profile.
SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
I just fundamentally don't understand the idea that nobody's allowed to restrict firearms manufacturing unless they can solve complex riddles about the nature of parts. I understand that you perceive this to be a deep and interesting point, but to me it seems enragingly obtuse. Let's start with blacklisting DefCAD and iterate from there, what's wrong with that? Like, it's true that refrigerators don't maintain a completely uniform temperature, meaning there's some philosophical wiggle room in what it means for a health department to say that raw meat must be stored at 41F. But it would be absurd for a meatpacker to declare that this means food safety is "impossible", and outrageous for them to conclude that they're just not going to bother refrigerating their meat at all.
- bluescrn 4mo ago
  How long until people get police showing up at their door because they tried to print something harmless but gun-shaped (like a light gun for retro games, or Nerf-style toys) and were flagged by the AI 'firearm detector'?
  - SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
    If you want to have a voice in how the regulation is implemented, perhaps you should offer suggestions for how to implement it better. That's how it works in most industries; legislators propose to enact regulation X, manufacturers respond that X would have undesirable consequences and Y would be better, and then they discuss to figure out how to best balance all the competing interests. For reasons that aren't entirely clear to me, firearms manufacturers seem to think they're entitled to instead stomp their feet and say "no, no regulation, you have to let me do whatever I want!". I'm never quite sure why they think this foot-stomping would be at all persuasive to people who don't manufacture firearms. Again, I imagine you don't see things this way and I'd be happy to learn more about what I've gotten wrong here.

rangestransform 4mo ago

Yellow dots doxxing me whenever I print something is equally despicable, client side scanning on my iPhone is equally despicable. Some crimes are not worth it to eliminate, and western liberal society should just accept that the optimal amount of crime is non zero.