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There was also a very peculiar train crash in the UK just a few days ago. A train hit a stationary train. That shouldn't really happen in this day and age. Sabo

There was also a very peculiar train crash in the UK just a few days ago. A train hit a stationary train. That shouldn't really happen in this day and age. Sabotage was the first thing that came to my mind. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gy60gg6k5o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gy60gg6k5o

OJFord 4mo ago
Maybe. OP isn't saying it's necessarily malicious interference though.
- Blahah 4mo ago
  Not a stretch to imagine that it is though. Germany has some very effective radical vandals who make statements by interrupting infrastructure.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - wolfi1 4mo ago
    could still be incompetence, one newspaper says an update has gone wrong
- section_me 4mo ago
  The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently. British person living in Berlin.
  - gpvos 4mo ago
    Incorrect. They wouldn't fit in the tiny UK loading gauge (profile). UK trains are indeed variants of continental models, but made to custom size, and many (most?) of them in the UK.
    - ErroneousBosh 4mo ago
      Leide nicht. Trains in Germany and the UK for main-line running both use 1435mm gauge. UK trains are not a custom size.
      - gpvos 4mo ago
        They are. Rail gauge and loading gauge are different concepts. Use Wikipedia.
      - phatfish 4mo ago
        Everything about UK rail is custom (apart from the gauge). Apparently it's one of the (many) reasons HS2 is such a mess. They were trying to run trains faster than typical continental high speed lines, which meant custom design work that needs loads of additional testing and certification. Rather than just use the Spanish or French high speed designs.
        dcel 4mo ago
        Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future. This is entirely in line with many other modern HS lines. China’s been running regular 360km/h services for years. This is a project with a 200+ year shelf life. Designing to 300 or less would have been short sighted, and many of the changes to accommodate such high speeds actually reduce costs in the long term (slab track, headroom to catch up delayed services, ability for one trainset to operate more services per day etc). The cost overruns of HS2 are primarily from plain old poor project management, complex planning law and constant political meddling, not engineering decisions.
        bluGill 4mo ago
        China has run at 360kmh before, but last I checked they mostly run slower. Air resistance is a killer as you go faster. So for trains 300 is usually about the best compromise between energy use and speed. If you want to go faster a jet at altitude is going to be much faster at a better fuel efficiency. High speeds make sense for long distances.
  - ahartmetz 4mo ago
    Deutsche Bahn doesn't manufacture rolling stock. They buy it from Siemens, Stadler, Talgo, Alstom etc... Edit: AFAIK, some of it - mainly high-speed trains - is designed according to DB specs and subsequently offered under a new name (and with changes) to other train companies. For example DB ICE 3 (manufactured by Siemens) / Siemens Velaro.
    - SiempreViernes 4mo ago
      You can probably buy some of the older rolling stock from DB thought.
      - bennofs 4mo ago
        There is even a website just for that: https://www.db-gebrauchtzug.de/r/gbzp/gbzp/home?session=222825306192 https://www.db-gebrauchtzug.de/r/gbzp/gbzp/home?session=2228...
        deleted 4mo ago
        [deleted]
      - ahartmetz 4mo ago
        It does happen occasionally, but DB tends to run, maintain and sometimes upgrade its successful (~reliable and widely introduced) rolling stock until it falls apart or is grossly outdated (40+ years old). Rail passenger numbers are increasing, so there is no need to sell stuff to downsize. The Flixtrain company uses 40+ years old IC (intercity) cars - they have no air conditioning and it's really loud inside with open windows, especially so in tunnels. That is the kind of stuff that DB sells.
        LargoLasskhyfv 4mo ago
        Hrrm. Funny. I thought that those were so called "Eurofima", which I remember as fucking cold in summer, because then their AC were set at full blast, which was annoying at the times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofima_coach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofima_coach Also no real opening of windows anymore, because early onset of https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druckertüchtigte_Schienenfahrzeuge https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druckertüchtigte_Schienenfahrz... <- meaning pressure protection against passing trains at high speeds, entering tunnels, and such.
  - gib444 4mo ago
    > The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently. This is totally incorrect. We buy our trains from French/Swiss/German/Spanish/Belgian manufacturers, or build them ourselves in eg Derby. We do not buy our trains from DB.
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
beejiu 4mo ago
Yes, and just yesterday a passenger train was routed into the path of a freight train due to some points failure. It does make you wonder. https://www.railmagazine.com/news/points-failure-results-in-near-miss-on-midland-main-line https://www.railmagazine.com/news/points-failure-results-in-...
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4mo ago
  The trains heading for each other was not a direct result of the points failure but a direct result of the manual operation of the points after the failure. Everything was on go-slow so no risk of collision. This was human error.
gib444 4mo ago
There was a GSM-R outage in the UK last month ago too [0] [0] https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nationwide-gsmr-outage-19-05.302336/ https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nationwide-gsmr-outage-...
ablation 4mo ago
No, sabotage doesn't hold up. The thing that rules it out is the braking, or rather lack of it. Passengers reported no screeching and no sudden deceleration before impact, which means the driver thought the line ahead was clear. Tampered track or an obstruction or some kind of remote hack (getting into the realms of fantasy there) would normally give him something to react to. This entirely fits a missed signal or a signalling/protection failure. It also feels like "a train hitting a stationary one shouldn't happen", but that's the textbook rear-end-after-a-SPAD scenario - e.g. Ladbroke Grove. No official has hinted at foul play either. Everything so far points to an accident in the signalling chain or faulty TPWS. But the interim report is due in two days so we'll see more then.
- felooboolooomba 4mo ago
  > This entirely fits a missed signal or a signalling/protection failure Perhaps a signalling/protection sabotage? > No official has hinted at foul play either That doesn't really mean much. Officials in the UK are incredibly reserved in hinting at something that they can't back up with evidence. Since they're still investigating, they keep their mouth shut. But yes, the sensible thing is to wait for the report.
  - ablation 4mo ago
    Why stop there? Maybe it's sabotage all the way down, like turtles? I'm sure that even if the official report totally excludes the possibility of sabotage, for some people that in itself will be the clearest possible sign that there was, in fact, sabotage at play.

OJFord 4mo ago

Maybe. OP isn't saying it's necessarily malicious interference though.

Blahah 4mo ago
Not a stretch to imagine that it is though. Germany has some very effective radical vandals who make statements by interrupting infrastructure.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- wolfi1 4mo ago
  could still be incompetence, one newspaper says an update has gone wrong
section_me 4mo ago
The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently. British person living in Berlin.
- gpvos 4mo ago
  Incorrect. They wouldn't fit in the tiny UK loading gauge (profile). UK trains are indeed variants of continental models, but made to custom size, and many (most?) of them in the UK.
  - ErroneousBosh 4mo ago
    Leide nicht. Trains in Germany and the UK for main-line running both use 1435mm gauge. UK trains are not a custom size.
    - gpvos 4mo ago
      They are. Rail gauge and loading gauge are different concepts. Use Wikipedia.
    - phatfish 4mo ago
      Everything about UK rail is custom (apart from the gauge). Apparently it's one of the (many) reasons HS2 is such a mess. They were trying to run trains faster than typical continental high speed lines, which meant custom design work that needs loads of additional testing and certification. Rather than just use the Spanish or French high speed designs.
      - dcel 4mo ago
        Max line speed of HS2 is 360km/h, with provision for 400 in some sections in future. This is entirely in line with many other modern HS lines. China’s been running regular 360km/h services for years. This is a project with a 200+ year shelf life. Designing to 300 or less would have been short sighted, and many of the changes to accommodate such high speeds actually reduce costs in the long term (slab track, headroom to catch up delayed services, ability for one trainset to operate more services per day etc). The cost overruns of HS2 are primarily from plain old poor project management, complex planning law and constant political meddling, not engineering decisions.
        bluGill 4mo ago
        China has run at 360kmh before, but last I checked they mostly run slower. Air resistance is a killer as you go faster. So for trains 300 is usually about the best compromise between energy use and speed. If you want to go faster a jet at altitude is going to be much faster at a better fuel efficiency. High speeds make sense for long distances.
- ahartmetz 4mo ago
  Deutsche Bahn doesn't manufacture rolling stock. They buy it from Siemens, Stadler, Talgo, Alstom etc... Edit: AFAIK, some of it - mainly high-speed trains - is designed according to DB specs and subsequently offered under a new name (and with changes) to other train companies. For example DB ICE 3 (manufactured by Siemens) / Siemens Velaro.
  - SiempreViernes 4mo ago
    You can probably buy some of the older rolling stock from DB thought.
    - bennofs 4mo ago
      There is even a website just for that: https://www.db-gebrauchtzug.de/r/gbzp/gbzp/home?session=222825306192 https://www.db-gebrauchtzug.de/r/gbzp/gbzp/home?session=2228...
      - deleted 4mo ago
        [deleted]
    - ahartmetz 4mo ago
      It does happen occasionally, but DB tends to run, maintain and sometimes upgrade its successful (~reliable and widely introduced) rolling stock until it falls apart or is grossly outdated (40+ years old). Rail passenger numbers are increasing, so there is no need to sell stuff to downsize. The Flixtrain company uses 40+ years old IC (intercity) cars - they have no air conditioning and it's really loud inside with open windows, especially so in tunnels. That is the kind of stuff that DB sells.
      - LargoLasskhyfv 4mo ago
        Hrrm. Funny. I thought that those were so called "Eurofima", which I remember as fucking cold in summer, because then their AC were set at full blast, which was annoying at the times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofima_coach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofima_coach Also no real opening of windows anymore, because early onset of https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druckertüchtigte_Schienenfahrzeuge https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druckertüchtigte_Schienenfahrz... <- meaning pressure protection against passing trains at high speeds, entering tunnels, and such.
- gib444 4mo ago
  > The UK buys most of their trains from Deutsche Bahn (German Rail) and just brands them differently. This is totally incorrect. We buy our trains from French/Swiss/German/Spanish/Belgian manufacturers, or build them ourselves in eg Derby. We do not buy our trains from DB.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]

beejiu 4mo ago

Yes, and just yesterday a passenger train was routed into the path of a freight train due to some points failure. It does make you wonder. https://www.railmagazine.com/news/points-failure-results-in-near-miss-on-midland-main-line https://www.railmagazine.com/news/points-failure-results-in-...

6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4mo ago
The trains heading for each other was not a direct result of the points failure but a direct result of the manual operation of the points after the failure. Everything was on go-slow so no risk of collision. This was human error.

gib444 4mo ago

There was a GSM-R outage in the UK last month ago too [0] [0] https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nationwide-gsmr-outage-19-05.302336/ https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nationwide-gsmr-outage-...

ablation 4mo ago

No, sabotage doesn't hold up. The thing that rules it out is the braking, or rather lack of it. Passengers reported no screeching and no sudden deceleration before impact, which means the driver thought the line ahead was clear. Tampered track or an obstruction or some kind of remote hack (getting into the realms of fantasy there) would normally give him something to react to. This entirely fits a missed signal or a signalling/protection failure. It also feels like "a train hitting a stationary one shouldn't happen", but that's the textbook rear-end-after-a-SPAD scenario - e.g. Ladbroke Grove. No official has hinted at foul play either. Everything so far points to an accident in the signalling chain or faulty TPWS. But the interim report is due in two days so we'll see more then.

felooboolooomba 4mo ago
> This entirely fits a missed signal or a signalling/protection failure Perhaps a signalling/protection sabotage? > No official has hinted at foul play either That doesn't really mean much. Officials in the UK are incredibly reserved in hinting at something that they can't back up with evidence. Since they're still investigating, they keep their mouth shut. But yes, the sensible thing is to wait for the report.
- ablation 4mo ago
  Why stop there? Maybe it's sabotage all the way down, like turtles? I'm sure that even if the official report totally excludes the possibility of sabotage, for some people that in itself will be the clearest possible sign that there was, in fact, sabotage at play.