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Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines
- LargoLasskhyfv 3mo agoWell. It's a signal. What did you expect?
- dtj1123 3mo agoWould you mind elaborating?
- rekabis 3mo agoAnyone who values democracy is automatically an anti-fascist. Democracy is _inherently_ anti-fascist.
- SpaceNugget 3mo agoIf there is a large group of people who use a term like "anti-fascist" as a tag line it no longer is a literal representation of the words. Just like how you wouldn't say that a guy rolling coal in a lifted pickup with a confederate flag and an AR mounted in the window who calls himself a "freedom fighter" is literally fighting for freedom. Otherwise you will just be talking past people who are interpreting it to mean something else. Which of course you are free to do if you don't think what you are trying to say has enough value to be worth avoiding the miscommunication.
- like_any_other 3mo agoThese are the values of the original antifa that killed and died for democracy by the way: https://web.archive.org/web/20211222183606/https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/12/20/greatest-generation-survey-race-sex/ https://web.archive.org/web/20211222183606/https://www.washi...
- qwery 3mo agoLabelling (all?) American (Allied?) personnel as "antifa" or even "anti-fascist" is an interesting move. The article doesn't seem to demonstrate what you suggest it does nor does it seem particularly relevant in general. What are you trying to say?
- like_any_other 3mo agoThat, if we accept that logic, we must either say the Allies who fought in WWII didn't value democracy, or we must accept a definition of anti-fascist that is so broad, it easily includes people even many on the right would call Nazis.
- da-x 3mo agoDemocracy also has a 'tyranny of the majority' vulnerability in which it can enforce policies onto minorities that could be just as harsh compared to policies imposed by autocracies. For example - Japanese American internment in WWII.
- nisegami 3mo agoA lot of people desire their own oppression, so I don't think democracy is inherently anti-fascist.
- GaryBluto 3mo agoI'd argue that most, if not all clandestine cells that call themselves themselves "Antifa" are as anti-Fascist as the "National Socialist German Workers' Party" were socialist.
- kbelder 3mo ago>Anyone who values democracy is automatically an anti-fascist. Sure. None of that has anything to do with Antifa. You can't claim popular support for thuggish behavior by claiming dibs on a name.
- pasta67 3mo agoMussolini had majority vote in Democratic elections. Fascism can not rise without Democracy.
- p0w3n3d 3mo agoIn Poland during the Soviet occupation (1945-1989) people were beaten and jailed for having a copier that would be used for copying magazines and brochures
- FromHoiPolloi 3mo agoI'd argue it was a vassal state, not occupied (per se) at least from the 1950's onwards. Yes, the soviet troops did station in Poland, but the beatings were administered by other Polish citizens.
- stillvasals 3mo agoIt still is, it just changed owners.
- bit-anarchist 3mo agoAnd who would be the owners? Give names.
- Terr_ 3mo agoNowadays your printer puts secret markings into everything, and Microsoft and Apple can link those to your account and IP address.
- justsomehnguy 3mo ago> during the Soviet occupation Yep, things were waaay better in 1938, right? NB: I like how [0] just ignores everything between 1918 and 2007. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic%E2%80%93Poland_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Republic%E2%80%93Poland_...
- jeromie 3mo agoThe ability of Texas to adhere so intensely to the idea of radical individualism while also being wholly committed to fascism at a policy level has always confused me. When I studied Texas history in University, the textbook opened with a sentence along the lines of "Texas Government has always been characterized by incompetence and nepotism", and through that lens, I filed many of the absurdities (e.g. Greg Abbott's entire career and the "free speech area" on my university campus) under that bucket. A couple decades haves since passed and my view has changed to see the openly racist institutions, targeted policing and zero-sum "satesmanship" at both local and state levels that forego core democratic values for "winning" (or at least lining the pockets of your donors) as something more jaded and sociopathic. There are a lot of truly good, smart people in Texas, yet it's been an fairly openly fascist state for decades. Coming from the Bay Area and having lived in a lot of places, I've never felt like I lived in a police state more than in the DFW metroplex, although when visiting family in Northern CA, CAMP operations in Mendocino County come as a close second in terms of authoritarian vibes. I was so confused with how many people from the valley openly aligned and invested in such a deeply corrupt state in the 2000s. Elon was unsurprising given his fashy incel leanings, but Apple's choice to build the Austin campus floored me. An office in a state where your female employees don't have reproductive rights? How do you endorse that? You can't just look past the political rot that has defined Texas for generations with the excuse that you can buy a "Keep Austin Weird" sticker at H.E.B. The people in Austin and across the state advocating for a better future and an accountable government deserve a shoutout, but man, if you wanted to see the writing on the wall for American Democracy, all you needed to do was look at Texas anytime between 1996 and now. It's sad because it really is beautiful country full of decent people, but it's blatantly and unjustifiably corrupt, and diametrically opposed to the core American values that it attaches to it's lifted, 9-tom, 1/2"-longer-than-the-same-model-sold-in-every-other-state pick 'em up truck, and it's gamed so hard that the people in the state will never undo it. Texas was the test case.
- krn1p4n1c 3mo agoTexas is where a large section of the founders of the Confederacy fled to once it was clear the war was lost. It’s harbored their bigotry and ideology. You’re right about it being the test case. Having one of the largest state populations meant that it helped drive textbook curation for elementary/HS education. Smaller red states that didn’t have the population or budget to define their own textbooks would use Texas’.
- arjie 3mo agoThe sentences are pretty crazy but what’s with the strange understatement. > One fired an AR-15 at the police, which goes beyond legitimate protest into inciting violence (and maybe even deliberate provocation) The accurate statement is that he shot and wounded a police officer who he intentionally targeted according to his own testimony (where he claims he did so because he thought the cop was going to shoot his guys). > Signs you're a dangerous terrorist: using Signal, moving zines The accurate statement is: “hiding zines that could be considered evidence of affiliation at the request of your arrested wife”. Listen, the sentences seem politically motivated. They’re quite long. But if you joined a protest group where the organizer shoots a policeman and you’ve all got weapons at home and then you tell people to move the material you have at home that indicates you’re part of the group then I think the convictions are pretty accurate. This is pretty out there stuff. And I’m not going to give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who yells “get to the rifles” then gets to the rifles and shoots a policeman that he could have been ‘potentially inciting violence’ by shooting. He committed violence. And hiding the facts here does not make me sympathetic. https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/sentencing-for-8-accused-of-antifa-ties-convicted-on-terrorism-charges-over-shooting-at-tx-immigration-facility/4039978/ https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/sentencing-for-8-accused-o...
- postpawl 3mo ago[dead]
- copper-float 3mo ago[flagged]
- Arodex 3mo agoIf you want a discussion, here it is: >this kind of behavior can't be normalized What happened to the Jan 6 rioters? Ashli Babbitt received military funeral honors for what? Discuss: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” What is the intent of the 2nd amendment? It allows citizens to beat arms, but for what purpose?
- 8fingerlouie 3mo agoThis is hardly a new approach or development. A decade ago, reading Linux Journal would get you flagged as being an extremist : https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4rp5l6/nsa_classifies_linux_journal_readers_tor_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4rp5l6/nsa_classifie...
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3mo agoWere they giving people 50 years in prison for it back then too?
- qwery 3mo agoI don't think you've understood the story you're commenting on. These people weren't "flagged" as terrorists, they were convicted and sentenced (extremely) harshly.
- adjejmxbdjdn 3mo agoThere’s literally no comparison between “flagging”, which has no legal requirement or no actual consequence without actual trial, and the results of an actual trial.
- metalman 3mo agoEven though I am commited to resisting "fascism" in all it's forms,the people convicted were definitly working themselves up to do something even worse. For me there crime was to be undisaplined and they did not understand there responsibilitys while armed, which is unexcusable. If they realy wanted to engage in armed struggle against fascists, then there are plenty of places where they could voulenteer to fight irregular mercenary forces hired and equiped by companys and governments to destroy populations that have the missfortune to live on top of some oil or other extractable resource, but what they did was cosplay bieng a revolutionary in a suberban environment, and no doubt had plans to hook up for a few drinks at the club later. These people made the classic, fascist, mistake of thinking in terms of a hiarchical relationship of rights, and forgot , that everybody has rights, even a dumb ass junior cop who goes where he's told, while for all anyone knows is fielding texts from his wife ,promising that he will take the van in and get the brakes checked.
- secretsatan 3mo agoDon’t forget shipping people to foreign concentration camps for having tattoos.
- JuniperMesos 3mo ago> Let’s be clear: a few of the protesters were out of bounds. One fired an AR-15 at the police, which goes beyond legitimate protest into inciting violence (and maybe even deliberate provocation). I would never condone that kind of activity. This is the crux of the issue - from the perspective of the government, this was a group of people who lead an armed terrorist attack on a government facility in order to disrupt the functioning of that facility because they held an ideological belief that the facility was immoral; and it's irrelevant that not every member of the group personally shot a cop with an AR-15, just as it wasn't relevant that Osama bin Laden didn't personally hijack any planes and crash them into buildings when the US government sent special forces to break into his compound and kill him. > Instead, other “evidence” was used to infer that they planned violence, including this specific argument that should give everyone pause: > “[…] including their decision to communicate and auto-delete messages on Signal, an encrypted messaging platform widely used among activists, journalists and other citizens wary of government surveillance.” Given that the other evidence that they planned violence was that they set off fireworks outside the facility, vandalized it, and then shot a cop in the neck when the cop came to investigate the vandalism, I don't really care that the government prosecutors also considered their use of Signal as evidence that they planned violence. Frankly, if you're part of a group that is planning violence, it is a good idea to use an encrypted messaging platform like Signal that has an auto-delete feature to do that planning, the prosecutors are correct to note this.
- GaryBluto 3mo agoI found the wording of "inciting violence" odd - surely firing a rifle at police officers is violence and not simply incitement for others to join in? It sounds like the author of the article is so obsessed with the social ramifications of acts they can't see the literal ones.
- stillvasals 3mo ago[flagged]
- mmonaghan 3mo agoThe country has changed massively through voting in the last 25 years. I would rather not change to a system where political groups attack others with guns and bombs to change things, because that's the alternative you're proposing. Touch grass, find a significant other, and build a life.
- hughw 3mo agoNobody's talking about how "terrorism" has expanded to mean, in law, armed opposition the the government. Throw in terrorism and the sentence goes up dramatically. Is it possible to oppose the government with arms yet not be a terrorist? I'd say, yes. But I never expect to see a prosecution acknowledge that. They're even making drug smugglers into terrorists and murdering them extrajudicially.
- stevenwoo 3mo agoTwo of those people were not involved in any of the planning and discussion of weapons via Signal and still got 30 year sentences, for the magazines bit. The shooter claimed he only shot because he saw the officer shooting at the back of fleeing unarmed protestors - this type of law enforcement is frowned upon in most other countries but regularly happens unopposed in the USA and officers will claim and most of the time get qualified immunity. The whole prosecution feels of a kind of the misuse of laddering and felony murder charges.
- prepend 3mo ago> The shooter claimed he only shot because he saw the officer shooting at the back of fleeing unarmed protestors This is still not the right move. I think I remember people being convicted of shooting back at cops directly shooting at them. But shooting at cops because you think they are shooting at protestors is never going to end up properly.
- foobarchu 3mo agoThen what's the right to it doing in the constitution?
- pasta67 3mo agoThe constitution is fine. The main issue is about definition of oppression that is shifted by Left. And can I point the dissonance here as you seem to not get it - you want to overthrow "oppression"... and AT THE SAME TIME complain that "opressive" government has unfair laws against you? If you do not succeed at overthrowing "oppression", expect to be punished like losers, as state has monopoly on violence and is free to punish harshly those that challenge that monopoly.
- bArray 3mo agoThis article is quite dishonest. > Let’s be clear: a few of the protesters were out of bounds. "out of bounds" is a nice way of putting it. Terrorism is an accurate description. > But these sentences far outstrip anything that’s been given to anyone on the right wing: the leader of the Proud Boys, as this article notes, was sentenced to 22 years in prison. I think the difference here is the planned terrorist activity, and condolence of violence. If the Proud Boys were doing to same sort of thing, then fair - but I cannot find in a Google search that they did. > One protester wasn’t even present, but was sentenced to 30 years for moving some zines > The ninth defendant, Daniel Sanchez-Estrada was not at the protest, but was convicted of corruptly concealing a document or record after prosecutors said he moved leftwing zines and other materials at the request of Rueda, his wife, after she was arrested. Clearly it was not just "moving some vines", it was knowingly concealing evidence and attempting to prevent the course of justice. > Instead, other “evidence” was used to infer that they planned violence, including this specific argument that should give everyone pause An argument can be made there, all are innocent unless proven guilty. But I suspect they admitted to being fully aware and supportive of the terrorist activities. The prosecution can claim all they like, the important thing is what ends up being considered.
- qwery 3mo ago> "out of bounds" is a nice way of putting it. This I agree with. > it was knowingly concealing evidence The article does not misrepresent this. The issue being raised is about how they were tried/convicted/sentenced. The part you quoted shows this. > Terrorism is an accurate description. > ... the difference here is the planned terrorist activity, ... If the Proud Boys were doing [the] same sort of thing ... I'm genuinely interested in what "terrorism" means to you.
- pasta67 3mo agoTerrorism comes from word terror - it is use of violence to impose terrorist goals. Usually political. The fact that they have chosen as a target police is just return to classical terrorism that existed 100+ years ago. Targeting innocents by taking hostages, 911 or blowing up cooker are quite recent developments for terrorist activities. What was your definition for terrorism?
- adjejmxbdjdn 3mo agoA reminder that the current administration was running military operations on Signal.
- prepend 3mo ago> One fired an AR-15 at the police This is what makes this different. There’s lots of gun clubs all over the place. But if a member shoots at the police (or anyone, really) they are going to get the book thrown at them and everyone associated with them who helped them, etc. Because that changes your club from something normal to something that tried to shoot cops. There’s a group in my town called the NFA club or something. They get their rifles out and march around neighborhoods. They stop cars. Quite scary. But they no the law and never brandish, directly threaten, etc. But if one of them ever shoots at a cop, I expext the whole group is going to jail.
- DangitBobby 3mo agoIt would be nice if cops could start following the law, in this case not firing at non-combatants would have sufficed.
- prepend 3mo agoYes, certainly. These are separate issues. Cops doing illegal things does not mean it’s appropriate for private citizens to do illegal things. Compounding the injustice is that probably nothing will happen to the cops, but harsh sentences for the protestors. The solution to this is not shooting cops.
- DangitBobby 3mo agoWhen they don't enact the actual solutions people will start shooting the cops. That's just the way decline of a society works.
- prepend 3mo agoNo, not at all. As evidenced by the very few people who shoot at cops, even though cops have done illegal stuff forever. And how the few who shoot at cops usually are executed on the spot or have super extreme sentences.
- senordevnyc 3mo ago
- george916a 3mo ago[dead]