3 ms·

Not sure if it used to be the case with South Africa too, but I'm baffled how much ideological support Israel still has, in various population groups. There ar

by xg15 4mo ago

Not sure if it used to be the case with South Africa too, but I'm baffled how much ideological support Israel still has, in various population groups. There are at least two religious groups who seem to view it as integral part of a divine plan that trumps all other considerations. ("mainstream" Orthodox Jews and Evangelical Christians) Then there various secular narratives around the Jewish homeland, the rebirth (and Germany's redemption) after the Holocaust etc. For western politicians, it seems far easier to chime in to the dehumanization of Palestinians and either paint the daily suffering there as "tragic but necessary", make fun of it or dismiss it completely - than to object to those stories. This seems to work on a different layer than geopolitics, so I have doubts that a shift in geopolitics alone would change this. (I may be wrong) Though maybe the changed perception of Israel after the Gaza war might change it.

the_origami_fox 4mo ago
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- xg15 4mo ago
  Yes, and that seems to be the rationale of western politicians as well, essentially, "we have to protect Israel to protect the Jewish people, without it, the Holocaust would risk repeating" That makes sense as a "subjective experience" (if there is something like the subjective experience of a people), but it fails the reality check for me. Yes, Israel is the center of Jewish life today (New York coming next apparently), but I can't really believe that it genuinely is the safest place for Jews in the world today - not after the last years. Jews in the US or Europe were not at risk of being murdered by Hamas, hit by a missile from Iran or get conscripted in a war. Jews in Israel were. > Most want peace but believe their Arab enemies do not. Well, everyone wants peace in the "I won" sense. I don't see that most Israeli Jews want peace in the sense of living together peacefully with their neighbors. (Neither do their neighbors, true - which is why I fault Israelis less here than the western allies who should apply force to both sides to deescalate and reconcile if they really wanted to end the conflict, but who instead only apply pressure to one side and unquestionably support the other side)
  - throw310822 4mo ago
    > Neither do their neighbors, true Their neighbours don't really have an option though. Stopping all resistance will not stop the settlers from harassing and chasing away the natives, and it will not force Israel to respect any border (which they took care of not even declaring). If anything, Palestinian resistance is functional to the progress of the occupation, so, if things get too quiet, a couple of killings or demolished homes keep the situation dynamic enough. Unless you're counting on the moral authority of the Western nations that stayed silent or even financed and armed Israel while it was starving a population under blockade and bombings, murdering tens of thousands of civilians, killing hundreds of journalists, bombing hospitals and universities. Maybe they would say something if Israel killed and conquered a population that absolutely refuses to react. What do you think?
  - deleted 4mo ago
    [deleted]
  - hknceykbx 4mo ago
    [flagged]
    - bigyabai 4mo ago
      Israel has conscription laws that require all Jews participate in the IDF. It's one of the only places on Earth where a pacifist Jew would be forcibly made to participate in lethal conflict. There are thousands of other, safer places that a Jew (or anyone, for that matter) could choose to live. As evidenced by the lack of Iron Dome in New Jersey.
  - the_origami_fox 4mo ago
    [flagged]
    - xg15 4mo ago
      > There are hardly any Jews in Europe after the Holocaust. They're a rounding error. The communities are small and vulnerable. The largest community in France is under strain with antisemitism and is moving to Israel. The 2nd largest in the UK is not far behind. This honestly makes no sense for me. I live in Europe (Germany) and the discussion about antisemitism and Jewish life is front-and-center here. There are also several synagogues in my city. No one, not even the pro-Palestinian protesters wants them to go away - on the contrary, most protesters (from the left!) go out of their way to stress that their protest against the state of Israel is not hate against the Jewish people. In fact, lots of protesters are Jews themselves. Who keeps conflating the two things and blurring the boundaries in public discussion are pro-Israel orgs. Unfortunately, you're right that real antisemitism is rising. However all European states are taking a stance against that. > There have been repeated attempts at peace... You forgot the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.
- lorecore 4mo ago
  > It is also where Jews are most protected. Israel is without a doubt, the most dangerous place for Jews in the world. Not only is the entire country built on ethnically cleansed land (and thus Zionists have the indigenous population correctly trying to get them off the land), Israel has also attacked almost every country in the region and regularly receives missile attacks.
throw478322 4mo ago
You are missing the very massive religious and ideological groups who are on the other side and see in the destruction of Israel a divine plan or a fulfilment of some secular ideal. This blinkered view will reasonably leave you baffled and with a distorted world model, and a perception that people are stupid when they are actually seeing the bigger picture.
- xg15 4mo ago
  No question those exist, but this ignores basic human psychology: If my whole family was wiped out in an airstrike, and then I have a whole population saying "yup, that's exactly how things should be!", of course I would start to hate them.
  - throw478322 4mo ago
    I don’t think you understood. You pointed out support from parts of two Abrahamic faiths for Israel, while ignoring the other major Abrahamic faith, whose opposition to Israel is older and in much greater numbers and zealotry than the evangelical one is for Israel, and has existed long before Israel even had an air force. They are not family and often not even the same race. It’s a religious thing, but you only find two of the three religious alignments irrational, when these two are, at least in part, just reacting in response to the other.
JKCalhoun 4mo ago
Just wanted to recommend the film, Ajami (2009) [1] that touches on the rather hair-trigger issues in the region. Pretty intense film that does, I think, a good job of showing all sides. [1] https://youtu.be/9VFRMkUlf9g https://youtu.be/9VFRMkUlf9g

by xg15 4mo ago

the_origami_fox 4mo ago

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xg15 4mo ago
Yes, and that seems to be the rationale of western politicians as well, essentially, "we have to protect Israel to protect the Jewish people, without it, the Holocaust would risk repeating" That makes sense as a "subjective experience" (if there is something like the subjective experience of a people), but it fails the reality check for me. Yes, Israel is the center of Jewish life today (New York coming next apparently), but I can't really believe that it genuinely is the safest place for Jews in the world today - not after the last years. Jews in the US or Europe were not at risk of being murdered by Hamas, hit by a missile from Iran or get conscripted in a war. Jews in Israel were. > Most want peace but believe their Arab enemies do not. Well, everyone wants peace in the "I won" sense. I don't see that most Israeli Jews want peace in the sense of living together peacefully with their neighbors. (Neither do their neighbors, true - which is why I fault Israelis less here than the western allies who should apply force to both sides to deescalate and reconcile if they really wanted to end the conflict, but who instead only apply pressure to one side and unquestionably support the other side)
- throw310822 4mo ago
  > Neither do their neighbors, true Their neighbours don't really have an option though. Stopping all resistance will not stop the settlers from harassing and chasing away the natives, and it will not force Israel to respect any border (which they took care of not even declaring). If anything, Palestinian resistance is functional to the progress of the occupation, so, if things get too quiet, a couple of killings or demolished homes keep the situation dynamic enough. Unless you're counting on the moral authority of the Western nations that stayed silent or even financed and armed Israel while it was starving a population under blockade and bombings, murdering tens of thousands of civilians, killing hundreds of journalists, bombing hospitals and universities. Maybe they would say something if Israel killed and conquered a population that absolutely refuses to react. What do you think?
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
- hknceykbx 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - bigyabai 4mo ago
    Israel has conscription laws that require all Jews participate in the IDF. It's one of the only places on Earth where a pacifist Jew would be forcibly made to participate in lethal conflict. There are thousands of other, safer places that a Jew (or anyone, for that matter) could choose to live. As evidenced by the lack of Iron Dome in New Jersey.
- the_origami_fox 4mo ago
  [flagged]
  - xg15 4mo ago
    > There are hardly any Jews in Europe after the Holocaust. They're a rounding error. The communities are small and vulnerable. The largest community in France is under strain with antisemitism and is moving to Israel. The 2nd largest in the UK is not far behind. This honestly makes no sense for me. I live in Europe (Germany) and the discussion about antisemitism and Jewish life is front-and-center here. There are also several synagogues in my city. No one, not even the pro-Palestinian protesters wants them to go away - on the contrary, most protesters (from the left!) go out of their way to stress that their protest against the state of Israel is not hate against the Jewish people. In fact, lots of protesters are Jews themselves. Who keeps conflating the two things and blurring the boundaries in public discussion are pro-Israel orgs. Unfortunately, you're right that real antisemitism is rising. However all European states are taking a stance against that. > There have been repeated attempts at peace... You forgot the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.
lorecore 4mo ago
> It is also where Jews are most protected. Israel is without a doubt, the most dangerous place for Jews in the world. Not only is the entire country built on ethnically cleansed land (and thus Zionists have the indigenous population correctly trying to get them off the land), Israel has also attacked almost every country in the region and regularly receives missile attacks.

throw478322 4mo ago

You are missing the very massive religious and ideological groups who are on the other side and see in the destruction of Israel a divine plan or a fulfilment of some secular ideal. This blinkered view will reasonably leave you baffled and with a distorted world model, and a perception that people are stupid when they are actually seeing the bigger picture.

xg15 4mo ago
No question those exist, but this ignores basic human psychology: If my whole family was wiped out in an airstrike, and then I have a whole population saying "yup, that's exactly how things should be!", of course I would start to hate them.
- throw478322 4mo ago
  I don’t think you understood. You pointed out support from parts of two Abrahamic faiths for Israel, while ignoring the other major Abrahamic faith, whose opposition to Israel is older and in much greater numbers and zealotry than the evangelical one is for Israel, and has existed long before Israel even had an air force. They are not family and often not even the same race. It’s a religious thing, but you only find two of the three religious alignments irrational, when these two are, at least in part, just reacting in response to the other.

JKCalhoun 4mo ago

Just wanted to recommend the film, Ajami (2009) [1] that touches on the rather hair-trigger issues in the region. Pretty intense film that does, I think, a good job of showing all sides. [1] https://youtu.be/9VFRMkUlf9g https://youtu.be/9VFRMkUlf9g