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Exactly. Cryptocurrency is useful as as a backup system against failing/weak institutions. Just that. Like insurance, it was not there to make anyone's lives be

Exactly. Cryptocurrency is useful as as a backup system against failing/weak institutions. Just that. Like insurance, it was not there to make anyone's lives better but simply to become a safeguard to avoid complete collapse.

pjc50 4mo ago
However, I think there's an argument that the existence of that backup, or at least its marketing, might of itself encourage people to make the institutions fail so they can profit from it.
- rglullis 4mo ago
  That's a weak argument. If the institutions can collapse because a few powerful people can work against it, then the institution has already failed in the first place. Trump and the general rise of Populism is not the cause of the fall of Western democracies, it is a consequence.
  - mrhottakes 4mo ago
    You don't seem to grasp that the answer isn't "oh well, Western democracies were just going to fail I guess"
    - inigyou 4mo ago
      The answer to what?
      - mrhottakes 4mo ago
        The answer to institutional collapse, the topic of the post to which I replied.
  - felixgallo 4mo ago
    You're going to have to show your work on that one. Western democracies are suffering not because they are failing, but because they have been chipped away at for decades by fanatical right wing billionaires intent on eliminating taxes and securing their place in a perpetual oligarchy.
astoor 4mo ago
If it was just a backup against failing/weak institutions it would be relavively benign, but the problem is that it incentivises machiavellian types to undermine society and nation states for their own personal profit - see e.g. The Sovereign Individual[0]. Combined with effective accelerationism[1] you can see why we could be heading towards somewhere a whole lot worse than The Bad Place. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sovereign_Individual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sovereign_Individual [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_accelerationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_accelerationism
- gom_jabbar 4mo ago
  [dead]
- slopinthebag 4mo ago
  Proponents of weak and failing institutions would make this exact claim about any sort of backup or alternative.
  - pixl97 4mo ago
    Two things can be true at the same time.
mrhottakes 4mo ago
It's not even useful for that, it's controlled by those same institutions now.
dboreham 4mo ago
Except it requires institutions in order to work.
- rglullis 4mo ago
  Yes, but the institutions don't need to be performing their function particularly well.
JeremyNT 4mo ago
> Exactly. Cryptocurrency is useful as as a backup system against failing/weak institutions. Just that. Like insurance, it was not there to make anyone's lives better but simply to become a safeguard to avoid complete collapse. Meh, it's arbitrage against slow moving financial regulations. There are times when financial regulations are "bad" in a way that this trait is desireable - i.e. your failing institutions use case - but in many cases these regulations are, actually, there for a reason. And now in practice crypto transactions for "normal" people are performed by bank-like institutions who log every transaction anyway, so this characteristic is really only valuable to the people deeply involved in the crypto world who are using it mainly to do "normal" crimes.
prewett 4mo ago
It doesn't even do that. If there's complete collapse, there won't be a reliable network to transact over, and not reliable electricity to run the network and do the processing.
- derangedHorse 4mo ago
  What are you thinking of when you say "complete collapse"? Zimbabwe's currency collapsed yet they still had access to electricity and a networks. It sounds like you're envisioning an apocalypse.
munksbeer 4mo ago
> Just that. Like insurance, it was not there to make anyone's lives better This is revisionism. That is not at all how it started.
cduzz 4mo ago
Let's talk; You're in Crimea right now. You want some gasoline. You have some magic numbers in your magic rock. It needs you to cast a spell to transmit those magic numbers to someone else. I guess it probably also needs ... some electricity and some network access and some time to make those magic numbers update in the gas station's magic number. In what way is this actually going to help you in a total collapse? Let's stand around over my iphone and cold wallet and spacex terminal while we wait for things to beep the right number of beeps? In the off-chance you find yourself in this situation, what's to stop the party with the gasoline from just pointing a gun at you or your corgi and asking you to add some zeros to the number of magic beans you're zapping into their magic number? Now, perhaps you as an international agent of mystery, can use some shiny rocks or magic pieces of paper to make your escape, and you can then, once safely back in a stable society, use your magic numbers and spells to transfer "wealth" to some organization closer to your new physical location (let's say belize?) -- in which case, to avoid a bunch of tedious laws and such, perhaps that magic trick will work in the way you suggest. But, when things go haywire and there's just Hobb's all against all, I'm not sure a magic cold wallet of certificates is going to do much.
- rglullis 4mo ago
  If your only idea of "institutional collapse" is "living in a war zone", then I envy you and your sheltered life.
  - cduzz 4mo ago
    Can you describe a "society collapse" where your cold wallet _can_ get you out of trouble, and why that particular situation isn't subject to "I will shoot your corgi." coercion? If you're dealing with a peer you can't trust (like the US government) that will ask for your passphrase and then not torture you for it if you refuse, I'd suggest you're not really in a situation where society has broken down.
    - rglullis 4mo ago
      You've created a strawman. In no point a said "society collapse". I am talking about failing institutions. You can find on this very same comment section a handful of people who live in places where cryptocurrency enables people to work around failing institutions and/or protect their wealth from systemic corruption.

pjc50 4mo ago

However, I think there's an argument that the existence of that backup, or at least its marketing, might of itself encourage people to make the institutions fail so they can profit from it.

rglullis 4mo ago
That's a weak argument. If the institutions can collapse because a few powerful people can work against it, then the institution has already failed in the first place. Trump and the general rise of Populism is not the cause of the fall of Western democracies, it is a consequence.
- mrhottakes 4mo ago
  You don't seem to grasp that the answer isn't "oh well, Western democracies were just going to fail I guess"
  - inigyou 4mo ago
    The answer to what?
    - mrhottakes 4mo ago
      The answer to institutional collapse, the topic of the post to which I replied.
- felixgallo 4mo ago
  You're going to have to show your work on that one. Western democracies are suffering not because they are failing, but because they have been chipped away at for decades by fanatical right wing billionaires intent on eliminating taxes and securing their place in a perpetual oligarchy.

astoor 4mo ago

If it was just a backup against failing/weak institutions it would be relavively benign, but the problem is that it incentivises machiavellian types to undermine society and nation states for their own personal profit - see e.g. The Sovereign Individual[0]. Combined with effective accelerationism[1] you can see why we could be heading towards somewhere a whole lot worse than The Bad Place. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sovereign_Individual https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sovereign_Individual [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_accelerationism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_accelerationism

gom_jabbar 4mo ago
[dead]
slopinthebag 4mo ago
Proponents of weak and failing institutions would make this exact claim about any sort of backup or alternative.
- pixl97 4mo ago
  Two things can be true at the same time.

mrhottakes 4mo ago

It's not even useful for that, it's controlled by those same institutions now.

dboreham 4mo ago

Except it requires institutions in order to work.

rglullis 4mo ago
Yes, but the institutions don't need to be performing their function particularly well.

JeremyNT 4mo ago

> Exactly. Cryptocurrency is useful as as a backup system against failing/weak institutions. Just that. Like insurance, it was not there to make anyone's lives better but simply to become a safeguard to avoid complete collapse. Meh, it's arbitrage against slow moving financial regulations. There are times when financial regulations are "bad" in a way that this trait is desireable - i.e. your failing institutions use case - but in many cases these regulations are, actually, there for a reason. And now in practice crypto transactions for "normal" people are performed by bank-like institutions who log every transaction anyway, so this characteristic is really only valuable to the people deeply involved in the crypto world who are using it mainly to do "normal" crimes.

prewett 4mo ago

It doesn't even do that. If there's complete collapse, there won't be a reliable network to transact over, and not reliable electricity to run the network and do the processing.

derangedHorse 4mo ago
What are you thinking of when you say "complete collapse"? Zimbabwe's currency collapsed yet they still had access to electricity and a networks. It sounds like you're envisioning an apocalypse.

munksbeer 4mo ago

> Just that. Like insurance, it was not there to make anyone's lives better This is revisionism. That is not at all how it started.

cduzz 4mo ago

Let's talk; You're in Crimea right now. You want some gasoline. You have some magic numbers in your magic rock. It needs you to cast a spell to transmit those magic numbers to someone else. I guess it probably also needs ... some electricity and some network access and some time to make those magic numbers update in the gas station's magic number. In what way is this actually going to help you in a total collapse? Let's stand around over my iphone and cold wallet and spacex terminal while we wait for things to beep the right number of beeps? In the off-chance you find yourself in this situation, what's to stop the party with the gasoline from just pointing a gun at you or your corgi and asking you to add some zeros to the number of magic beans you're zapping into their magic number? Now, perhaps you as an international agent of mystery, can use some shiny rocks or magic pieces of paper to make your escape, and you can then, once safely back in a stable society, use your magic numbers and spells to transfer "wealth" to some organization closer to your new physical location (let's say belize?) -- in which case, to avoid a bunch of tedious laws and such, perhaps that magic trick will work in the way you suggest. But, when things go haywire and there's just Hobb's all against all, I'm not sure a magic cold wallet of certificates is going to do much.

rglullis 4mo ago
If your only idea of "institutional collapse" is "living in a war zone", then I envy you and your sheltered life.
- cduzz 4mo ago
  Can you describe a "society collapse" where your cold wallet _can_ get you out of trouble, and why that particular situation isn't subject to "I will shoot your corgi." coercion? If you're dealing with a peer you can't trust (like the US government) that will ask for your passphrase and then not torture you for it if you refuse, I'd suggest you're not really in a situation where society has broken down.
  - rglullis 4mo ago
    You've created a strawman. In no point a said "society collapse". I am talking about failing institutions. You can find on this very same comment section a handful of people who live in places where cryptocurrency enables people to work around failing institutions and/or protect their wealth from systemic corruption.