7 ms·

Upgrading RAM on new iMac practically impossible

37 points by rpeden 14y ago

dpitkin 14y ago
So it's just like my Mac Book Air, that is a shame. Personal irony noted.
eungyu 14y ago
Thinness vs upgradability! Such a huge tradeoff. I really don't see the point in making desktop products super thin (there by making it inaccessible). Thinness is probably one of the last innovation area that customer may be excited for a desktop product. I would hope for better R&D direction in the future from Apple. This was evident in the Apple stores this weekend, where I saw iMac tables failing to draw any crowd.
bcl 14y ago
This is one reason why I bought the 15" MBP instead of the Retina. I fully expect this to be the last user-upgradable Mac, they seem to be moving everything towards an iPhone-like closed system.
- untog 14y ago
  Honestly, if you want to send a signal about user upgradability you should probably avoid buying a Mac entirely.
  - orangecat 14y ago
    A reasonable point, but assuming you want a Mac, on balance I think it's better to get a somewhat upgradeable model than abandon the platform altogether. Apple seems to be on the edge between continuing to support general purpose computing and migrating everyone to an iOS-style walled garden. By buying Macs but not iPhones or iPads, I'm hoping to increase the demand for actual computers over appliances that are locked down with the force of law.
akandiah 14y ago
This only affects the 21.5" model - the 27" model is not affected.
- teilo 14y ago
  Don't be so sure. What do you want to bet that the 27" display isn't also glued in place? Yeah, you can upgrade the RAM, but how do you replace a failing drive?
  - jrajav 14y ago
    From the article: "The not-yet-available 27-in. iMac will continue to sport four external memory slots." Another source: http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/23/21-5-imac-has-no-user-upgradable-ram-27-has-four-accessible-ram-slots/ http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/23/21-5-imac-has-no-user-up...
  - uptown 14y ago
    He's not talking about the hard drive. Yes, the 27" will have the same epoxy around the rim of the display, but the RAM is very-much user-accessible via a port on the back of the 27" model. It's both marketed and intended to be user-replaceable. The hard drive is not user-replaceable on the 27" though it is possible if you're willing to assume the risk/liability of doing so. A number of users on popular Mac forums have opened up their 21" iMac cases. It's definitely not ideal, and not something I'd recommend risk-adverse people to try, but from their descriptions, it hasn't been too difficult if you follow the procedures online. One guy used a knife and scratched the black off of the display. Most use a guitar pick and it doesn't have that problem. The rub is your warranty. If you break the epoxy seal and don't re-seal it with a suitable epoxy strip you're probably running the risk of any under-warranty claims being rejected by Apple should you need to have them service your machine. Not a problem for hard drives or RAM (you've probably opened it up to swap them out anyway) but definitely an issue for the main logic board.
Breakthrough 14y ago
As I paraphrased the article for my parents, "It's like buying a car with the hood welded shut."
- arn 14y ago
  And, a hood inaccessible to me wouldn't materially impact my purchase decision of a particular car, since my ability to service my own car is pretty much zero. For example, I don't even know how one accesses the "engine" of the Teslas but it doesn't bother me one bit that I can't access it.
  - whichdan 14y ago
    I don't know much about cars, but I still: - check my oil - replace my windshield washer fluid - check my coolant - jumpstart my engine - (rarely) jumpstart someone else's engine I know most people on HN have already sold a company for seven or eight figures, but for the rest of us, it's nice to have some flexibility :)
    - modoc 14y ago
      Upgrading RAM in an iMac is honestly probably more like replacing the carb with a Holley 4-barrell (in an older car), or swapping in a larger turbo, or something similar, than any of the examples you listed above. Although we may be waist deep in the silly analogy weeds at this point... The number of people who will be impacted by this limitation is probably a rounding error versus the number of iMacs sold.
      - lostlogin 14y ago
        I'd say its considerably more common than a carb conversion. At the end of a Mac's life I typically keep bunging RAM in to keep it as powerful as possible. I know several people who do the same.
      - Dylan16807 14y ago
        Those things are hard to do, which screws up the analogy. RAM in laptops I've had is behind a single screw and pops in in seconds.
wahnfrieden 14y ago
It would be nice If this didn't actually matter now that RAM is so ridiculously cheap, but I imagine it's an easy resource for Apple to milk the customer for on optional upgrades and will be for a long time.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Oh, you'd like to upgrade from 1GB to 2GB in your new Mac? That will be $200.
  - lurker14 14y ago
    It's $200 per marginal 8GB, actually. Per 1 GB, that's only a $20 markup over fair market value of the RAM. It's not so much when you say it that way, just like a text message is only 10c each, for each of the thousands Twitter/AIM generates.
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      Per 1GB, that's a $20 markup over $5.
j0j0r0 14y ago
post jobs apple committee rule combined with their litigious policies towards android are the reason that I'm never giving any money to them again...(and I used to drop a lot of money their way)
solac3 14y ago
I think this is really a shame. With things at apple going this direction it seems that they don't want to make technology as long lived as it could be. I know people don't buy new products with the long run in mind in many cases, leaving folks with little alternative to a full upgrade after the warranty has expired and something goes wrong. I myself have always enjoyed getting every last drop of life out of my computers. There is some joy in getting usefulness out of technology ten years out of date.
hosay123 14y ago
Apple clearly don't believe the marginal profit hit involved in appealing to nerds is required to maintain their market position. I do hope they're wrong. I realize many nerds are quite comfortable with the commoditization of computing equiment, and I appreciate many livelihoods depend on the shoehorning of new software through a requisite Apple ID and profit share with the app store, but somehow I still hope there are enough technology advocates left that have yet to sell their souls, to have some counterbearing on this brave new world of shitty, locked down, for-commercially-approved-consumption-and-entertainment-purposes-only overpriced disposable hardware. Fuck the church of Apple and everything it stands for.
- bunderbunder 14y ago
  > Apple clearly don't believe the marginal profit hit involved in appealing to nerds is required to maintain their market position. Considering that the period over which they went from laying on their deathbed to becoming one of the most highly-valued companies in the world falls entirely within the period over which they started making these kinds of design changes, they'd have to be downright stupid to believe otherwise. But for the sake of unpacking that idea anyway, let me advance that what's really going on is that they don't believe that the wallet of a nerd who is fundamentally opposed to the basic idea behind their business model in the first place isn't really worth chasing after. Apple deciding not to solder RAM to the motherboard because it might make their computers slightly less unappealing to a certain class of nerd makes about as much sense as your local butcher deciding to stop carrying veal in an effort to get more vegans to come through the door. Besides, I'm not convinced that RAM soldered to the board is a real practical complaint so much as yet another lightning bolt for an ideological grudge (I can't help but note the phrase "church of Apple"). We don't see the same griping about how the Raspberry Pi's RAM is soldered to the board. This even though it's a computer that, unlike the iMac, is specifically made for us tinkerers.
coffeedrinker 14y ago
I've had my 24" iMacs apart to replace hard drives, fix CD drives, and above all to clean out dust. You cannot even clean the dust out of the fan easily!
danso 14y ago
How much of this is a result of an actual design consideration rather than an active attempt to prevent modding? That is, is the decision to use glue instead of magnets out of an engineering concern? It just seems by now, Apple is making fistfuls of money and the average customer is so fine with letting AppleCare fix anything that only a small pct of users would ever try to take it apart to add third party upgrades. I guess there is a strong incentive to force users to replace computers after 3 years...but that seems shortsighted...a lot of people were loyal to Macs because they lasted longer than PCs...a customer who is using the same Mac body for 6 years may not be spending as much on hardware in the short term, but they'll have basically become a customer for life from then on.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Question is, will you need more than 8GB of memory in 3 years time if you are not doing something "intensive" like video editing (in which case Apple feels justified in charging you more for your computer)? I remember the memory requirements for computers rising sharply in 2000 but this was mainly because people were making the switch over from single user systems like Win95 to proper multiuser systems like Win2000/XP and starting to do things like play video on their computers.
- alwaysinshade 14y ago
  > That is, is the decision to use glue instead of magnets out of an engineering concern? Some of the new iMacs are being assembled in the US from factory "D2". I suspect the decision to use glue instead of user serviceable parts like screws/magnets is to reduce the amount of human labor required for assembly.
- MaysonL 14y ago
  I think it's more a little nudge at upsell: the 27 inch iMac's RAM is user-upgradeable.
knowaveragejoe 14y ago
Is anyone surprised? Apple is shifting to building appliances, it makes complete sense for them to do so.
- lurker14 14y ago
  Shifting? Apple has sold appliances for over 28 years.
damian2000 14y ago
Apple probably figures that the number of users who firstly are willing to shell out big $$$ for a new iMac, but then also care about saving $150 or so by doing a 3rd party RAM upgrade (and voiding warranty?) is fairly minimal.
omnisci 14y ago
Everyone here needs to understand that they are talking about a computer WITH an understanding of computers. Ask mom and dad if they want to upgrade their ram. The answer is “huh?”. The concept of upgrading computers doesn’t exist to many MAC (or PC) owners. Most users don’t give a shit about upgrading. When I was working in support, I remember a kid who had 19238012983 viruses on his computer. We formatted, reinstalled and 3 weeks later he was back again with 6 billion viruses. After formatting again, installing AV etc, he came back a few weeks later with a NEW laptop (back in 2002) because he thought the computer was the issue. He bought a whole new computer because he was too dumb to realize that HE was the problem. Apple sees this, and makes their products to work for those people. And it works. Hard drive died on your MBpro? Ahh man, time to get a new computer. (WTF?!). Apple takes advantage of this and they do it really well. They purposely build items that you can’t fix/upgrade so you come back to them. Even if it is free, you come to the store and look at all the new stuff…which is enticing. It’s quite brilliant. And this is why I don’t like the company. They are actually encouraging ignorance.

37 points by rpeden 14y ago

So it's just like my Mac Book Air, that is a shame. Personal irony noted.

Thinness vs upgradability! Such a huge tradeoff. I really don't see the point in making desktop products super thin (there by making it inaccessible). Thinness is probably one of the last innovation area that customer may be excited for a desktop product. I would hope for better R&D direction in the future from Apple. This was evident in the Apple stores this weekend, where I saw iMac tables failing to draw any crowd.

bcl 14y ago

This is one reason why I bought the 15" MBP instead of the Retina. I fully expect this to be the last user-upgradable Mac, they seem to be moving everything towards an iPhone-like closed system.

untog 14y ago
Honestly, if you want to send a signal about user upgradability you should probably avoid buying a Mac entirely.
- orangecat 14y ago
  A reasonable point, but assuming you want a Mac, on balance I think it's better to get a somewhat upgradeable model than abandon the platform altogether. Apple seems to be on the edge between continuing to support general purpose computing and migrating everyone to an iOS-style walled garden. By buying Macs but not iPhones or iPads, I'm hoping to increase the demand for actual computers over appliances that are locked down with the force of law.

akandiah 14y ago

This only affects the 21.5" model - the 27" model is not affected.

teilo 14y ago
Don't be so sure. What do you want to bet that the 27" display isn't also glued in place? Yeah, you can upgrade the RAM, but how do you replace a failing drive?
- jrajav 14y ago
  From the article: "The not-yet-available 27-in. iMac will continue to sport four external memory slots." Another source: http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/23/21-5-imac-has-no-user-upgradable-ram-27-has-four-accessible-ram-slots/ http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/23/21-5-imac-has-no-user-up...
- uptown 14y ago
  He's not talking about the hard drive. Yes, the 27" will have the same epoxy around the rim of the display, but the RAM is very-much user-accessible via a port on the back of the 27" model. It's both marketed and intended to be user-replaceable. The hard drive is not user-replaceable on the 27" though it is possible if you're willing to assume the risk/liability of doing so. A number of users on popular Mac forums have opened up their 21" iMac cases. It's definitely not ideal, and not something I'd recommend risk-adverse people to try, but from their descriptions, it hasn't been too difficult if you follow the procedures online. One guy used a knife and scratched the black off of the display. Most use a guitar pick and it doesn't have that problem. The rub is your warranty. If you break the epoxy seal and don't re-seal it with a suitable epoxy strip you're probably running the risk of any under-warranty claims being rejected by Apple should you need to have them service your machine. Not a problem for hard drives or RAM (you've probably opened it up to swap them out anyway) but definitely an issue for the main logic board.

Breakthrough 14y ago

As I paraphrased the article for my parents, "It's like buying a car with the hood welded shut."

arn 14y ago
And, a hood inaccessible to me wouldn't materially impact my purchase decision of a particular car, since my ability to service my own car is pretty much zero. For example, I don't even know how one accesses the "engine" of the Teslas but it doesn't bother me one bit that I can't access it.
- whichdan 14y ago
  I don't know much about cars, but I still: - check my oil - replace my windshield washer fluid - check my coolant - jumpstart my engine - (rarely) jumpstart someone else's engine I know most people on HN have already sold a company for seven or eight figures, but for the rest of us, it's nice to have some flexibility :)
  - modoc 14y ago
    Upgrading RAM in an iMac is honestly probably more like replacing the carb with a Holley 4-barrell (in an older car), or swapping in a larger turbo, or something similar, than any of the examples you listed above. Although we may be waist deep in the silly analogy weeds at this point... The number of people who will be impacted by this limitation is probably a rounding error versus the number of iMacs sold.
    - lostlogin 14y ago
      I'd say its considerably more common than a carb conversion. At the end of a Mac's life I typically keep bunging RAM in to keep it as powerful as possible. I know several people who do the same.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      Those things are hard to do, which screws up the analogy. RAM in laptops I've had is behind a single screw and pops in in seconds.

wahnfrieden 14y ago

It would be nice If this didn't actually matter now that RAM is so ridiculously cheap, but I imagine it's an easy resource for Apple to milk the customer for on optional upgrades and will be for a long time.

sliverstorm 14y ago
Oh, you'd like to upgrade from 1GB to 2GB in your new Mac? That will be $200.
- lurker14 14y ago
  It's $200 per marginal 8GB, actually. Per 1 GB, that's only a $20 markup over fair market value of the RAM. It's not so much when you say it that way, just like a text message is only 10c each, for each of the thousands Twitter/AIM generates.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    Per 1GB, that's a $20 markup over $5.

j0j0r0 14y ago

post jobs apple committee rule combined with their litigious policies towards android are the reason that I'm never giving any money to them again...(and I used to drop a lot of money their way)

solac3 14y ago

I think this is really a shame. With things at apple going this direction it seems that they don't want to make technology as long lived as it could be. I know people don't buy new products with the long run in mind in many cases, leaving folks with little alternative to a full upgrade after the warranty has expired and something goes wrong. I myself have always enjoyed getting every last drop of life out of my computers. There is some joy in getting usefulness out of technology ten years out of date.

hosay123 14y ago

Apple clearly don't believe the marginal profit hit involved in appealing to nerds is required to maintain their market position. I do hope they're wrong. I realize many nerds are quite comfortable with the commoditization of computing equiment, and I appreciate many livelihoods depend on the shoehorning of new software through a requisite Apple ID and profit share with the app store, but somehow I still hope there are enough technology advocates left that have yet to sell their souls, to have some counterbearing on this brave new world of shitty, locked down, for-commercially-approved-consumption-and-entertainment-purposes-only overpriced disposable hardware. Fuck the church of Apple and everything it stands for.

bunderbunder 14y ago
> Apple clearly don't believe the marginal profit hit involved in appealing to nerds is required to maintain their market position. Considering that the period over which they went from laying on their deathbed to becoming one of the most highly-valued companies in the world falls entirely within the period over which they started making these kinds of design changes, they'd have to be downright stupid to believe otherwise. But for the sake of unpacking that idea anyway, let me advance that what's really going on is that they don't believe that the wallet of a nerd who is fundamentally opposed to the basic idea behind their business model in the first place isn't really worth chasing after. Apple deciding not to solder RAM to the motherboard because it might make their computers slightly less unappealing to a certain class of nerd makes about as much sense as your local butcher deciding to stop carrying veal in an effort to get more vegans to come through the door. Besides, I'm not convinced that RAM soldered to the board is a real practical complaint so much as yet another lightning bolt for an ideological grudge (I can't help but note the phrase "church of Apple"). We don't see the same griping about how the Raspberry Pi's RAM is soldered to the board. This even though it's a computer that, unlike the iMac, is specifically made for us tinkerers.

coffeedrinker 14y ago

I've had my 24" iMacs apart to replace hard drives, fix CD drives, and above all to clean out dust. You cannot even clean the dust out of the fan easily!

danso 14y ago

How much of this is a result of an actual design consideration rather than an active attempt to prevent modding? That is, is the decision to use glue instead of magnets out of an engineering concern? It just seems by now, Apple is making fistfuls of money and the average customer is so fine with letting AppleCare fix anything that only a small pct of users would ever try to take it apart to add third party upgrades. I guess there is a strong incentive to force users to replace computers after 3 years...but that seems shortsighted...a lot of people were loyal to Macs because they lasted longer than PCs...a customer who is using the same Mac body for 6 years may not be spending as much on hardware in the short term, but they'll have basically become a customer for life from then on.

jiggy2011 14y ago
Question is, will you need more than 8GB of memory in 3 years time if you are not doing something "intensive" like video editing (in which case Apple feels justified in charging you more for your computer)? I remember the memory requirements for computers rising sharply in 2000 but this was mainly because people were making the switch over from single user systems like Win95 to proper multiuser systems like Win2000/XP and starting to do things like play video on their computers.
alwaysinshade 14y ago
> That is, is the decision to use glue instead of magnets out of an engineering concern? Some of the new iMacs are being assembled in the US from factory "D2". I suspect the decision to use glue instead of user serviceable parts like screws/magnets is to reduce the amount of human labor required for assembly.
MaysonL 14y ago
I think it's more a little nudge at upsell: the 27 inch iMac's RAM is user-upgradeable.

knowaveragejoe 14y ago

Is anyone surprised? Apple is shifting to building appliances, it makes complete sense for them to do so.

lurker14 14y ago
Shifting? Apple has sold appliances for over 28 years.

damian2000 14y ago

Apple probably figures that the number of users who firstly are willing to shell out big $$$ for a new iMac, but then also care about saving $150 or so by doing a 3rd party RAM upgrade (and voiding warranty?) is fairly minimal.

omnisci 14y ago

Everyone here needs to understand that they are talking about a computer WITH an understanding of computers. Ask mom and dad if they want to upgrade their ram. The answer is “huh?”. The concept of upgrading computers doesn’t exist to many MAC (or PC) owners. Most users don’t give a shit about upgrading. When I was working in support, I remember a kid who had 19238012983 viruses on his computer. We formatted, reinstalled and 3 weeks later he was back again with 6 billion viruses. After formatting again, installing AV etc, he came back a few weeks later with a NEW laptop (back in 2002) because he thought the computer was the issue. He bought a whole new computer because he was too dumb to realize that HE was the problem. Apple sees this, and makes their products to work for those people. And it works. Hard drive died on your MBpro? Ahh man, time to get a new computer. (WTF?!). Apple takes advantage of this and they do it really well. They purposely build items that you can’t fix/upgrade so you come back to them. Even if it is free, you come to the store and look at all the new stuff…which is enticing. It’s quite brilliant. And this is why I don’t like the company. They are actually encouraging ignorance.