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So I started biking recently and was hunting for helmets. And turns out Virgina Tech does a bunch of helmet impact testing and maintains a ranking list https:/
by wxw 4mo ago
So I started biking recently and was hunting for helmets.
And turns out Virgina Tech does a bunch of helmet impact testing and maintains a ranking list https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/ https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/. The latest helmets have a releasable layer that absorbs (converts rotational energy?) more impact.
This HUD is pretty slick. In a way, it's more preventative (avoiding accidents) vs. reactive (absorbing impact in an accident) safety which sounds nice.
- mft_ 4mo ago> And turns out Virgina Tech does a bunch of helmet impact testing and maintains a ranking list https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/ https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/ Thanks for sharing. Interesting to see my Giro (with MIPS) has... 3 stars. Hmmm.
- carabiner 4mo agoI'm pretty convinced mips is just marketing. Hair will do the same thing. That's why in rock climbing world, petzl hasn't even bothered with it when they're usually very forward thinking about their designs (first company to do side impact testing).
- snovv_crash 4mo agoExactly. Hair and scalp. Evolution already made a MIPS system. The thing lacking it was the test dummies that Virginia Tech uses, so now they recommend we put it in helmets too.
- Scoundreller 4mo agoOr the ground being low traction: dusty/dirt/wet. Harder to control what you land on, but will diminish MIPS’ ROI in many situations.
- mmooss 4mo agoIf ruling out risks by a priori is a solution, why wear a helmet at all? Maybe you won't hit your head when you fall. Maybe you'll land in water or on a satin pillow (low friction).
- Scoundreller 4mo agoNot ruling out anything but pointing out MIPS’ benefits will be poorer than portrayed in the lab in many realistic situations. Sure, buy all the safety equipment you can afford that has any possible benefit. What’s better: a $15 more expensive bike light or a $15 more expensive helmet with MIPS?
- mmooss 4mo ago> MIPS’ benefits will be poorer than portrayed in the lab in many realistic situations How are they testing it in the lab? How do concussions work in realistic situations (is there one way?)? What is the distribution of realistic situations? Maybe the benefits are better in realistic situations; maybe the lab tests are more aggressive than reality or the results are interpreted conservatively (because scientists spending years on something might have thought of a 30-second hot take), ...
- neves 4mo agoFor $15, everybody should buy both. It's a non issue
- arrowleaf 4mo agoNot having my hair and scalp act as the MIPS system is worth the $20 extra to me.
- loeg 4mo agoIs it worth helmets that are 100g heavier and don't breathe as well, though?
- hgomersall 4mo agoI think they will already act like that, MIPS or not. Stick a helmet on your head, now wiggle it. It moves really quite a bit, unless you like to wear it so tight you get a headache.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- mmooss 4mo ago> Hair will do the same thing. VA Tech (and others, IIRC) has years of empirical tests that show otherwise. What is your comment based on? Edit: In fact, if I understand your analysis, humans won't get concussions at all.
- loeg 4mo agoVA's test dummy doesn't have hair.
- mmooss 4mo agoThat's not a basis for your claim.
- loeg 4mo agoWhat? GP's claim is that hair provides a similar benefit. VA is simply not testing heads with hair on them -- their tests can't "show otherwise" (your claim).
- mmooss 4mo ago> GP's claim is that hair provides a similar benefit. GP provides no evidence for that. VA Tech not addressing it (if it's true that they don't - I have no reason to believe it) is not evidence. VA Tech also doesn't address my theory that microscopic super-intelligent aliens affect helmet response.
- carabiner 4mo agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
- throwaway173738 4mo agoI’m bald on top
- kaikai 4mo agoThank you for this comment. I paid a little extra to get a helmet with mips but didn’t even think about my (long) hair serving the same function.
- necubi 4mo agoMIPS is increasingly common in rock helmets. Black Diamond (anecdotally the most common brand I see in the US) now has it in their higher end models, and Mammut as well.
- kakacik 4mo agoJust checked my BD climbing helmet I bought few years ago (seems like Mips Capitan model based on design). Considered these things a gimmick (any technical equipment bought has list of various tech used within, I generally ignore that by default since I have no idea what each means), happy to see move for more safety in this area. Even small steps matter. I will climb in big heat wave we have here in Europe now this evening, more sweaty = more slippery on polished rock crags, risk is always not as far as we like to think.
- carabiner 4mo agoPetzl makes better helmets than BD. They pioneered the ultralight foam kind with the sirocco that everyone (including BD and Mammut) copied. Yet they still don't care about MIPS.
- hgomersall 4mo agoIt does feel like a thing that has never been properly validated. It's a good market to push this in because, well, why wouldn't you spend 10% more to be a little bit safer?
- Scoundreller 4mo agoMIPS is a liner that makes the same helmet a bit better. A crappy helmet with MIPS is a slightly less crappy helmet that may still be worse than a great non-MIPS helmet. Like upgrading a 1960 motor vehicle death trap’s 2 point seat belts to 3 point. It’ll help, but it’s still a death trap.
- Rebelgecko 4mo agoFwiw they changed their ranking system a year or two ago in a way that moved a bunch of formerly 5 star helmets to 3 stars. Too many helmets hit the old five star threshold, so to differentiate it's now based on relative performance (the x% best helmets get 5 stars) instead of static thresholds.
- mmooss 4mo agoLast I knew, several years ago, Virginia Tech tested for concussion prevention and the layer that 'slips' on impact was called the MIPS layer. (Please correct me if that's changed.) That is important and useful, and is best used in combination with other testing: Bicycling also has many other and more serious risks to cyclist head, including skull fractures, brain damage, and death. Consumer Reports is another great source (better one IMHO); in their labs they do empirical testing for other outcomes of ~150 helmets, and provide a comprehensive guide to buying helmets: https://www.consumerreports.org/health/bike-helmets/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/bike-helmets/ In Consumer Reports’ tests, we strap helmets onto “head forms” that simulate the size of a human head, then drop them 14 mph onto a flat anvil to find out how well they withstand impact. An electronic sensor inside the head form monitors the force that would be transmitted to a rider’s skull in an accident. To ensure the helmet will stay in place during an accident, we test the strength of the chinstraps, attachment points, and buckles by dropping a weight that’s 8¾ pounds and 2 feet so that it yanks on the straps to simulate the force of a crash. Our testers also evaluate each helmet for ventilation, fit adjustments, ease of use, and other features.
- dominotw 4mo agooh yea skiing and mountian biking helmets have had mips for years
- tonymet 4mo agoMIPS is great but every layer is a tradeoff with venting. without MIPS the vents allow air onto your scalp. with MIPS you effectively have a plastic shower cap over your head, beneath the EVA foam insulator. I'm anti MIPS
- PpEY4fu85hkQpn 4mo agoI'm looking at my 2 MIPS helmets right now and your comment is complete nonsense. If anything the MIPS layer will allow for more breathability.
- tonymet 4mo agohow does a plastic liner improve breathability? the foam layer has clearance over the scalp/ hair. The mips layer sits over the scalp and prevents airflow.
- ctidd 4mo agoThere are multiple MIPS systems. The early ones were like you described, with a distinct feeling of too much plastic. Newer ones (e.g. Integra) are much more seamless. There are also other companies doing different types of rotational tech, like Lazer with an integral foam-based shearing design. If you have only tried first-gen MIPS, I recommend giving it another shot.
- tonymet 4mo agothanks that's actually helpful. I wasn't aware of the revisions. i have a 2023/2024 POC with mips. I'm guessing it's gen whatever. I'm sure a lot of people don't mind it. I ride a lot and sweat a lot so I'm more sensitive to airflow than most.
- Drunk_Engineer 4mo ago99% of bike fatalities involve car crashes. There is no styrofoam helmet which will protect against that, and the VaTech test notably does not model that type of crash. To my knowledge, the only group that tried to test bike helmets against a car is Volvo -- and all helmets failed.
- usrusr 4mo agoThe key service performed by a cycling helmet is not turning a death situation into a permanently maimed situation (they do that, but that's a very rare occurrence), it's turning a life changing injury situation into a situation of some fractured bones that will be almost forgotten two months later. The life and death part is overrated. I guess one reason people are so focused on that is because it's easy to quantify.
- rnewme 4mo agoX-Rays of Rob Pike's Shoulder http://herpolhode.com/rob/xray.html http://herpolhode.com/rob/xray.html
- usrusr 4mo agoYeah, there are clavicle fractures that clearly don't need any surgery, but when in doubt, always slap on some titanium. Just try to get rid of the plate before the next fracture opportunity, because then you'll get an AC joint separation instead of a fracture and that stuff won't grow back. Ask me how I know, I had surgery to swap a fracture plate for an AC plate (those AC plates really, really suck)
- jibal 4mo agohttps://www.facs.org/about-acs/statements/statement-on-bicycle-safety-and-the-promotion-of-bicycle-helmet-use/ https://www.facs.org/about-acs/statements/statement-on-bicyc... Helmets reduce the risk of head injury by 48%, traumatic brain injury by 53%, facial injury by 23%, and fatal injury by 34%.2 Pediatric non-helmeted bikers have a 3-fold higher risk of serious head injury compared to helmeted bikers;3 one study suggests that helmet use may reduce the risk of head injury by 83%.4 Bicycle-related head injuries and deaths have decreased in states that have enacted bicycle helmet laws.5 Larger effects are found when legislation applies to all cyclists than when it applies to children only. 6
- CobaltFire 4mo agoI've posted that to HN before and it never gets traction. It's too bad; it's an excellent resource.
- affyboi 4mo agoBig shoutout to this study! Highly recommend donating if you get any value from these lists > The latest helmets have a releasable layer that absorbs (converts rotational energy?) more impact. MIPS? Or is there something newer