5 ms·

I don't understand why we can't just copy another country's housing strategy. There are many countries in the world where housing is affordable, relatively high

I don't understand why we can't just copy another country's housing strategy. There are many countries in the world where housing is affordable, relatively high quality, and the homelessness rate is low. What are we doing that makes this problem so seemingly intractable? Why is our approach to public housing seemingly worse than any other approach in history?

epsteingpt 4mo ago
A bit of a misnomer. Housing is, actually, extremely affordable across the US - just not in major cities. You can plunk $10-$20K and get land and a homestead in dozens of states. Agree with the other comment that overbuilding is a reasonable strategy, but if you look at Detroit downtown (mid 2010s) having an overbuilt downtown is bad too. It's a hard problem.
- throwaway27448 4mo ago
  Well we didn't exactly divvy up either housing or employment rationally, so looking through history without state subsidies and development, we're going to see slums pop up where the jobs are. Or just massive homeless populations I guess. China managed this quite well with the hukou system, which allegedly is going to be loosened over time, but that seems distinctly unlikely to be understood by the powers that be here in the US.
- supertroop 4mo ago
  10k??? Yes because I want to live in east bumfuck in a food desert and drive 40 minutes to the one megamart and where the services barely work and my police/fire/usps is on the next town over 20 miles away. Did I mention the legions of uneducated anti-Christians who would probably kill me for being queer?
- rob74 4mo ago
  That's actually the same in most countries: the cities where everyone wants to move to (examples from Germany: Berlin, Hamburg, Munich) become unaffordable, and at the same time smaller cities and villages in less desirable areas (e.g. in East Germany, but also in more remote areas of Bavaria) are depopulated - there you can buy a cheap house, but you can't get a job. Remote working would have helped to somewhat alleviate this, but no, now we all have to go back to the office so we can sit there and spend the whole day in Zoom/Slack/Teams calls instead of doing the exact same thing from home...
- pjc50 4mo ago
  Similar things in lots of countries. There are villages in Italy and Spain with near-zero housing prices. The qualifier that needs added is "housing in commute range of jobs". Stoke on Trent was selling houses for £1 with improvement grants attached! https://www.citymonitor.ai/analysis/stoke-shows-why-selling-homes-1-gives-councils-power-revive-deprived-communities-3550/?cf-view https://www.citymonitor.ai/analysis/stoke-shows-why-selling-...
  - Applejinx 4mo ago
    And of course if 'jobs' becomes 'there is nothing a person can do that can't be more efficiently done by hiring AI more cheaply, plus you get to treat AI completely differently because AI is not a person' that complicates matters very much.
- apothegm 4mo ago
  > You can plunk $10-$20K and get land and a homestead in dozens of states. In a place where the only jobs to be had are at below-subsistence minimum wage at the dollar store and you have to drive 2 hours to see a doctor, sure.
  - treis 4mo ago
    There's a huge middle ground between Manhattan and homesteading on a $10k property. Here in Atlanta you can buy a 4/3 house for $270k or a 2/1 house for $160k. The rust belt and sunbelt are full of places with cheap housing.
    - apothegm 4mo ago
      That’s most definitely not $10-20k, tho.
throe939448 4mo ago
You mean like in Sweeden, where you have to wait 20 years for assigned flat? Europe has no homelesness, because migrants are housed at hotels at great expense!
- elktown 4mo ago
  That's due to moving away from the government ensuring an adequate supply of rental units over the last decades. Intentional free market style policies.
- throwaway27448 4mo ago
  I mean better than having no assigned flat at all....
  - lifestyleguru 4mo ago
    Waiting time can last longer than your ability to rent housing on a market regulated by supply and demand.
- Hikikomori 4mo ago
  You mean Stockholm. You can buy, wait 20 years, or find a private building owner. But same problem, not building enough.
raybb 4mo ago
What makes the problem intractable is that we have a system where for a huge chuck of the country your retirement is based on housing prices appreciating. It's clear if you directly own a home but even if you don't lots of the places you park your money to watch it grow are ultimately investing/speculating on real estate. Some might call it housing asset based welfare. Even if you don't like that mouthful another simple example is the University of California putting 4 billion into Blackstone's REIT with "a minimum 11.25% annualized net return through January 2028." That REIT is 90% rentals. So probably at least a few people will feel the squeeze from it. https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/university-california-invest-4-bln-blackstones-reit-2023-01-03/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/university-californ... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10901-009-9177-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10901-009-9177-6
th0raway 4mo ago
Far fewer than you'd think: The vast majority of Europe is in the same boat as the US. Whenever there's value in agglomeration (ie, all the time), the value of well placed properties just skyrockets, because growth is only going to make that land better. That's why a common recommendation is to up the tax of land as to make speculation with valuable property a bad investment: It's already price like an auction, so higher taxes cannot increase rent prices. The problem is political, as countries with housing problems have a whole lot of individuals have a big percentage of their net worth in housing. Big tax increases would make their property values drop, and they'd be quite upset. So it solves the problem while losing elections. Instead, governments are happy providing tax advantages to existing residents, in practice making prices go up even faster.
lifestyleguru 4mo ago
It's the other way round:) Europe is salivating at the American real estate market. Some European countries don't have capital gains tax on real estate and real estate is the only investment vehicle without this tax. The only country where real estate prices haven't skyrocket looks to be Finland but their general situation is very specific and it's hard to say whether it's by design or by accident. Social housing in Europe while exists, distribution of it is extremely corrupted process. Applying and waiting will give you something in 5 years or never, you'll know in 5 years. You have to be young couple both employed with perfect portfolio, or whatever the role model in that time and location is. Young couples both employed in desirable city basically don't exist anymore, even if you are after two rounds of waiting suddenly you are not a young couple anymore:) Usually you have to know someone and give a bribe.

epsteingpt 4mo ago

A bit of a misnomer. Housing is, actually, extremely affordable across the US - just not in major cities. You can plunk $10-$20K and get land and a homestead in dozens of states. Agree with the other comment that overbuilding is a reasonable strategy, but if you look at Detroit downtown (mid 2010s) having an overbuilt downtown is bad too. It's a hard problem.

throwaway27448 4mo ago
Well we didn't exactly divvy up either housing or employment rationally, so looking through history without state subsidies and development, we're going to see slums pop up where the jobs are. Or just massive homeless populations I guess. China managed this quite well with the hukou system, which allegedly is going to be loosened over time, but that seems distinctly unlikely to be understood by the powers that be here in the US.
supertroop 4mo ago
10k??? Yes because I want to live in east bumfuck in a food desert and drive 40 minutes to the one megamart and where the services barely work and my police/fire/usps is on the next town over 20 miles away. Did I mention the legions of uneducated anti-Christians who would probably kill me for being queer?
rob74 4mo ago
That's actually the same in most countries: the cities where everyone wants to move to (examples from Germany: Berlin, Hamburg, Munich) become unaffordable, and at the same time smaller cities and villages in less desirable areas (e.g. in East Germany, but also in more remote areas of Bavaria) are depopulated - there you can buy a cheap house, but you can't get a job. Remote working would have helped to somewhat alleviate this, but no, now we all have to go back to the office so we can sit there and spend the whole day in Zoom/Slack/Teams calls instead of doing the exact same thing from home...
pjc50 4mo ago
Similar things in lots of countries. There are villages in Italy and Spain with near-zero housing prices. The qualifier that needs added is "housing in commute range of jobs". Stoke on Trent was selling houses for £1 with improvement grants attached! https://www.citymonitor.ai/analysis/stoke-shows-why-selling-homes-1-gives-councils-power-revive-deprived-communities-3550/?cf-view https://www.citymonitor.ai/analysis/stoke-shows-why-selling-...
- Applejinx 4mo ago
  And of course if 'jobs' becomes 'there is nothing a person can do that can't be more efficiently done by hiring AI more cheaply, plus you get to treat AI completely differently because AI is not a person' that complicates matters very much.
apothegm 4mo ago
> You can plunk $10-$20K and get land and a homestead in dozens of states. In a place where the only jobs to be had are at below-subsistence minimum wage at the dollar store and you have to drive 2 hours to see a doctor, sure.
- treis 4mo ago
  There's a huge middle ground between Manhattan and homesteading on a $10k property. Here in Atlanta you can buy a 4/3 house for $270k or a 2/1 house for $160k. The rust belt and sunbelt are full of places with cheap housing.
  - apothegm 4mo ago
    That’s most definitely not $10-20k, tho.

throe939448 4mo ago

You mean like in Sweeden, where you have to wait 20 years for assigned flat? Europe has no homelesness, because migrants are housed at hotels at great expense!

elktown 4mo ago
That's due to moving away from the government ensuring an adequate supply of rental units over the last decades. Intentional free market style policies.
throwaway27448 4mo ago
I mean better than having no assigned flat at all....
- lifestyleguru 4mo ago
  Waiting time can last longer than your ability to rent housing on a market regulated by supply and demand.
Hikikomori 4mo ago
You mean Stockholm. You can buy, wait 20 years, or find a private building owner. But same problem, not building enough.

raybb 4mo ago

What makes the problem intractable is that we have a system where for a huge chuck of the country your retirement is based on housing prices appreciating. It's clear if you directly own a home but even if you don't lots of the places you park your money to watch it grow are ultimately investing/speculating on real estate. Some might call it housing asset based welfare. Even if you don't like that mouthful another simple example is the University of California putting 4 billion into Blackstone's REIT with "a minimum 11.25% annualized net return through January 2028." That REIT is 90% rentals. So probably at least a few people will feel the squeeze from it. https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/university-california-invest-4-bln-blackstones-reit-2023-01-03/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/university-californ... https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10901-009-9177-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10901-009-9177-6

th0raway 4mo ago

Far fewer than you'd think: The vast majority of Europe is in the same boat as the US. Whenever there's value in agglomeration (ie, all the time), the value of well placed properties just skyrockets, because growth is only going to make that land better. That's why a common recommendation is to up the tax of land as to make speculation with valuable property a bad investment: It's already price like an auction, so higher taxes cannot increase rent prices. The problem is political, as countries with housing problems have a whole lot of individuals have a big percentage of their net worth in housing. Big tax increases would make their property values drop, and they'd be quite upset. So it solves the problem while losing elections. Instead, governments are happy providing tax advantages to existing residents, in practice making prices go up even faster.

lifestyleguru 4mo ago

It's the other way round:) Europe is salivating at the American real estate market. Some European countries don't have capital gains tax on real estate and real estate is the only investment vehicle without this tax. The only country where real estate prices haven't skyrocket looks to be Finland but their general situation is very specific and it's hard to say whether it's by design or by accident. Social housing in Europe while exists, distribution of it is extremely corrupted process. Applying and waiting will give you something in 5 years or never, you'll know in 5 years. You have to be young couple both employed with perfect portfolio, or whatever the role model in that time and location is. Young couples both employed in desirable city basically don't exist anymore, even if you are after two rounds of waiting suddenly you are not a young couple anymore:) Usually you have to know someone and give a bribe.