5 ms·

One thing that's particularly frustrating about all this is that any conversation with the growing contingency of distrustful people has been made very difficul

by nfw2 4mo ago

One thing that's particularly frustrating about all this is that any conversation with the growing contingency of distrustful people has been made very difficult by what I would call poor, avoidable, and illiberal decisions made by the federal government during COVID. (TBF, decisions during a crisis are always hard.) Lab leak theory was dismissed and actively suppressed. Inflated claims were made a priori about absolute vaccine efficacy that any responsible researcher who have not made. Moreover, the trouble with trying to shut down real disinformation, eg claims that vaccines were more dangerous than the virus, is that many people will view any sort of paternalistic behavior by the government, especially around speech, with suspicion. ("Why do they care so much about what I say? They must be hiding something") In the age of social media, I think the study of public health needs to consider more seriously the effects of viral psychology. The irrationality and stubbornness of people needs to be expected when planning public policy.

datsci_est_2015 4mo ago
Having lived through it myself, I found the government’s actions extremely mild when compared to something like what ICE has been up to. Zero people were directly killed by authorities because of Covid noncompliance. From my perspective, it’s hysteria borne out of the difference in requirements for urban health policy vs. rural health policy, and the fact that rural people quite often travel through urban areas (e.g. airports). Talk to anyone from Wyoming and ask what Covid was like during the worst days, and then talk to an ER doctor who worked in New York City. Cynically, I want to blame it on the absurd lack of empathy of rural Americans and a complete lack of ability to imagine day-to-day lifestyles that do not match their own. Were there a few scandals? For sure, I will not deny that. But I have the distinct urge to invent time travel for the hemmers, hawers, and devil’s advocates and transport them to New York Presbyterian in April of 2020. Edit: I also have to credit rightwing media, of course, for capitalizing on the opportunity to manufacture a wedge issue that every American had an armchair opinion of. Chicken and egg, of course, but media ghouls will be media ghouls.
- _DeadFred_ 4mo ago
  I was more middle of the road. I live in a rural red red state. Then during COVID people would yell at my dying of cancer mother on chemo for wearing a mask while grocery shopping. Eventually the stores had to set special hours so people like her could shop without harassment. My politics have been greatly impacted. I was shown there is no compassionate conservative, that is just cover for 'fuck everyone who is not me and my in group'. Or if there are compassionate conservatives, they don't care to step in an impose compassion, so they might as well not exist. My mom died afraid to go shopping in her own community because she would be verbally abused. My politics are never going back.
  - nfw2 4mo ago
    > they don't care to step in and impose compassion, so they might as well not exist. Is this not what the store owners did?
    - _DeadFred_ 4mo ago
      Zero patrons inside the stores cared/did anything. A business structuring things to prevent a scene is not compassion in my mind, just like pride awareness by businesses wasn't actual pride awareness.
      - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4mo ago
        [flagged]
      - nfw2 4mo ago
        Deciding whether someone's helpful actions or lack thereof is good or bad based on your perception of their internal mental state seems pretty fraught. How do you know why the business implemented this? How do you know what the other patrons felt about it? Do you regularly pick fights with psychopaths in public?
        _DeadFred_ 4mo ago
SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
There are many people who say they view any sort of paternalistic behavior with suspicion. But one obvious example of paternalistic behavior would be banning vaccines that people want to receive based on vague concerns of unproven harm. An even better example might be creating a site called realfood.gov, instructing the American people that only some kinds of food are "real" and you should ideally only eat "real" food. So if someone says they oppose paternalism in public health and yet supports the Trump administration's public health efforts, I'm not sure how to avoid the conclusion that they're lying.
- derwiki 4mo ago
  What’s the problem with realfood.gov? I just read the entire landing page and it seems reasonable to me
  - SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
    It seems reasonable to me too. It's good and proper for the government to tell people that certain foods are better than others, even when the bad foods are popular. Eating a pile of candy every day isn't a personal lifestyle choice we're required to respect and encourage; it's bad for people who do it and bad for society to have lots of people doing it. What I don't see is how anyone could argue this isn't paternalism.
  - qlte 4mo ago
    They’re pushing back against the parent comment’s suggestion that it’s a reaction to government “paternalism” in general and much closer to just “paternalism I don’t agree with”.
pjc50 4mo ago
"Lab leak" may or may not be true, but it's (a) going to be extremely hard to find evidence for given time and China, and (b) .. ultimately irrelevant? Are there people who think "COVID was a bioweapon and therefore we shouldn't mask up and get vaccinated"?

by nfw2 4mo ago

datsci_est_2015 4mo ago

Having lived through it myself, I found the government’s actions extremely mild when compared to something like what ICE has been up to. Zero people were directly killed by authorities because of Covid noncompliance. From my perspective, it’s hysteria borne out of the difference in requirements for urban health policy vs. rural health policy, and the fact that rural people quite often travel through urban areas (e.g. airports). Talk to anyone from Wyoming and ask what Covid was like during the worst days, and then talk to an ER doctor who worked in New York City. Cynically, I want to blame it on the absurd lack of empathy of rural Americans and a complete lack of ability to imagine day-to-day lifestyles that do not match their own. Were there a few scandals? For sure, I will not deny that. But I have the distinct urge to invent time travel for the hemmers, hawers, and devil’s advocates and transport them to New York Presbyterian in April of 2020. Edit: I also have to credit rightwing media, of course, for capitalizing on the opportunity to manufacture a wedge issue that every American had an armchair opinion of. Chicken and egg, of course, but media ghouls will be media ghouls.

_DeadFred_ 4mo ago
I was more middle of the road. I live in a rural red red state. Then during COVID people would yell at my dying of cancer mother on chemo for wearing a mask while grocery shopping. Eventually the stores had to set special hours so people like her could shop without harassment. My politics have been greatly impacted. I was shown there is no compassionate conservative, that is just cover for 'fuck everyone who is not me and my in group'. Or if there are compassionate conservatives, they don't care to step in an impose compassion, so they might as well not exist. My mom died afraid to go shopping in her own community because she would be verbally abused. My politics are never going back.
- nfw2 4mo ago
  > they don't care to step in and impose compassion, so they might as well not exist. Is this not what the store owners did?
  - _DeadFred_ 4mo ago
    Zero patrons inside the stores cared/did anything. A business structuring things to prevent a scene is not compassion in my mind, just like pride awareness by businesses wasn't actual pride awareness.
    - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4mo ago
      [flagged]
    - nfw2 4mo ago
      Deciding whether someone's helpful actions or lack thereof is good or bad based on your perception of their internal mental state seems pretty fraught. How do you know why the business implemented this? How do you know what the other patrons felt about it? Do you regularly pick fights with psychopaths in public?
      - _DeadFred_ 4mo ago

SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago

There are many people who say they view any sort of paternalistic behavior with suspicion. But one obvious example of paternalistic behavior would be banning vaccines that people want to receive based on vague concerns of unproven harm. An even better example might be creating a site called realfood.gov, instructing the American people that only some kinds of food are "real" and you should ideally only eat "real" food. So if someone says they oppose paternalism in public health and yet supports the Trump administration's public health efforts, I'm not sure how to avoid the conclusion that they're lying.

derwiki 4mo ago
What’s the problem with realfood.gov? I just read the entire landing page and it seems reasonable to me
- SpicyLemonZest 4mo ago
  It seems reasonable to me too. It's good and proper for the government to tell people that certain foods are better than others, even when the bad foods are popular. Eating a pile of candy every day isn't a personal lifestyle choice we're required to respect and encourage; it's bad for people who do it and bad for society to have lots of people doing it. What I don't see is how anyone could argue this isn't paternalism.
- qlte 4mo ago
  They’re pushing back against the parent comment’s suggestion that it’s a reaction to government “paternalism” in general and much closer to just “paternalism I don’t agree with”.

pjc50 4mo ago

"Lab leak" may or may not be true, but it's (a) going to be extremely hard to find evidence for given time and China, and (b) .. ultimately irrelevant? Are there people who think "COVID was a bioweapon and therefore we shouldn't mask up and get vaccinated"?