3 ms·

*failed communist state In proper function, ownership is an essential identity of any government.

by rho138 4mo ago

krapp 4mo ago
The end goal of communism is supposed to be the elimination of government - a stateless, classless and functionally anarchist society. Unsurprisingly no state which ever implemented communism ever took that part seriously.
- epolanski 4mo ago
  There's many different communist philosophies.
  - karmakurtisaani 4mo ago
    Indeed, makes all these discussions about communism so pointless.
- gacgacgac 4mo ago
  This is the end goal of one form of communism, but certainly not the end goal of communism. Many communists want a strong state and see a single party as desirable.
GMoromisato 4mo ago
I would love to hear an example of a successful communist state. You can even restrict it to a limited period in time (USSR 1959-1968 or something). I promise that I will not try to discredit your answer. I'm just curious what people think. But if you come back with "the communism I have in mind hasn't been tried yet" then I will definitely make fun of your answer.
- gacgacgac 4mo ago
  What is your rubric for successful? And does it shift if that state was the target of wars of aggression or embargoes?
  - GMoromisato 4mo ago
    My rubric is irrelevant--I promised I wouldn't try to argue against whatever countries got named. I'm just curious what people consider a successful communist country.
    - Retric 4mo ago
      If you’re open to a wider discussion. Norway's and Alaska’s use of oil wealth to subsidize their population via state ownership of that wealth is very communist in nature. Ancient Rome’s huge grain dole similarly was quite communist in nature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_annonae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_annonae America’s freeing its slave population is similarly redistribution of the means of production to the general population. Which seems strange to modern ears, but the communist manifesto 1848 predates the US civil war 1861–1865.
      - GMoromisato 4mo ago
        I'm not going to disagree with the idea of the state redistributing wealth via taxes/benefits or even nationalized resources (e.g., mineral rights or FCC spectrum). Both have been features of US capitalism almost since the founding. But if you're saying the US is a successful communist country... well, I promised I wouldn't argue.
        gacgacgac 4mo ago
        I'll argue -- socialist is not the same as communist. Norway is not a communist country (despite arguably being a socialist one).
        GMoromisato 4mo ago
        I agree. Moreover, socialism and capitalism are not antithetical--they are orthogonal. Norway and the US have socialism (e.g., Social Security) and capitalism (e.g., people invest their capital to fund industry). Socialism without capitalism is communism--the state owns everything. Capitalism without socialism is anarchy: if you don't socialize a legal system, law enforcement, and national defense, then you don't have a country.
- Stevvo 4mo ago
  China claims to be building a successful communist state. The argument goes that you need to have wealth first before you can redistribute it, and China is currently in the wealth-building phase of achieving communism.
  - smugglerFlynn 4mo ago
    If only things in life worked as well as things on paper
- 6P58r3MXJSLi 4mo ago
  > I would love to hear an example of a successful communist state. Basically, all of them They were so successful that the west (meaning mainly the U.S. and the Brits) have invested gigantic amounts of resources in fighting them. Imagine what they could have done for their citizens instead... And yet, communist ideas are still alive and kicking, while capitalism is hated everywhere, not only by the people living in anti-capitalistic countries, but also by those living in capitalist countries and by several über rich capitalists, nowadays. Modern capitalism isn't market economy, it's not fair in any way, it doesn't promote growth nor it does empower the masses and all the successes attributed to capitalism, for example The Marshall Plan, were an implementation of socialists ideas under a different name. Capitalism doesn't even improve living standards anymore, now that it distantiated itself from the socialist idea of the welfare state and promoted an unprecedented concentration of wealth and resources in the hands of the very few, who don't care about the society at large and have no problem in enslaving the people working for them. The real problem that you can't see, because your brain has been programmed to not see it, is that the U.S.A. empire is the worst in the history of mankind and it showed all its cracks and flaws in less than a century. Imagine how failing so hard and still claiming victory sounds to 90% of the world's population not brainwashed by the U.S. propaganda...
  - 6P58r3MXJSLi 4mo ago
    it's so funny when the stupid americans (from the U.S.A, because America is the whole continent and it's full of very intelligent people) can't stand that communism won over capitalism a century ago. Communism won, you heard it right, because it still means to the *whole World* freedom and empowerment of the working classes, except for stupid americans - there are intelligent americans, mind you. maybe a link with images and a voice over will be easier to understand for people like you https://www.instagram.com/reel/DZ0k_07Tqse/?igsh=MWVmcndnNzRzZnp3cg== https://www.instagram.com/reel/DZ0k_07Tqse/?igsh=MWVmcndnNzR...

*failed communist state In proper function, ownership is an essential identity of any government.

by rho138 4mo ago

*failed communist state In proper function, ownership is an essential identity of any government.

krapp 4mo ago

The end goal of communism is supposed to be the elimination of government - a stateless, classless and functionally anarchist society. Unsurprisingly no state which ever implemented communism ever took that part seriously.

epolanski 4mo ago
There's many different communist philosophies.
- karmakurtisaani 4mo ago
  Indeed, makes all these discussions about communism so pointless.
gacgacgac 4mo ago
This is the end goal of one form of communism, but certainly not the end goal of communism. Many communists want a strong state and see a single party as desirable.

GMoromisato 4mo ago

I would love to hear an example of a successful communist state. You can even restrict it to a limited period in time (USSR 1959-1968 or something). I promise that I will not try to discredit your answer. I'm just curious what people think. But if you come back with "the communism I have in mind hasn't been tried yet" then I will definitely make fun of your answer.

gacgacgac 4mo ago
What is your rubric for successful? And does it shift if that state was the target of wars of aggression or embargoes?
- GMoromisato 4mo ago
  My rubric is irrelevant--I promised I wouldn't try to argue against whatever countries got named. I'm just curious what people consider a successful communist country.
  - Retric 4mo ago
    If you’re open to a wider discussion. Norway's and Alaska’s use of oil wealth to subsidize their population via state ownership of that wealth is very communist in nature. Ancient Rome’s huge grain dole similarly was quite communist in nature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_annonae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_annonae America’s freeing its slave population is similarly redistribution of the means of production to the general population. Which seems strange to modern ears, but the communist manifesto 1848 predates the US civil war 1861–1865.
    - GMoromisato 4mo ago
      I'm not going to disagree with the idea of the state redistributing wealth via taxes/benefits or even nationalized resources (e.g., mineral rights or FCC spectrum). Both have been features of US capitalism almost since the founding. But if you're saying the US is a successful communist country... well, I promised I wouldn't argue.
      - gacgacgac 4mo ago
        I'll argue -- socialist is not the same as communist. Norway is not a communist country (despite arguably being a socialist one).
        GMoromisato 4mo ago
        I agree. Moreover, socialism and capitalism are not antithetical--they are orthogonal. Norway and the US have socialism (e.g., Social Security) and capitalism (e.g., people invest their capital to fund industry). Socialism without capitalism is communism--the state owns everything. Capitalism without socialism is anarchy: if you don't socialize a legal system, law enforcement, and national defense, then you don't have a country.
Stevvo 4mo ago
China claims to be building a successful communist state. The argument goes that you need to have wealth first before you can redistribute it, and China is currently in the wealth-building phase of achieving communism.
- smugglerFlynn 4mo ago
  If only things in life worked as well as things on paper
6P58r3MXJSLi 4mo ago
> I would love to hear an example of a successful communist state. Basically, all of them They were so successful that the west (meaning mainly the U.S. and the Brits) have invested gigantic amounts of resources in fighting them. Imagine what they could have done for their citizens instead... And yet, communist ideas are still alive and kicking, while capitalism is hated everywhere, not only by the people living in anti-capitalistic countries, but also by those living in capitalist countries and by several über rich capitalists, nowadays. Modern capitalism isn't market economy, it's not fair in any way, it doesn't promote growth nor it does empower the masses and all the successes attributed to capitalism, for example The Marshall Plan, were an implementation of socialists ideas under a different name. Capitalism doesn't even improve living standards anymore, now that it distantiated itself from the socialist idea of the welfare state and promoted an unprecedented concentration of wealth and resources in the hands of the very few, who don't care about the society at large and have no problem in enslaving the people working for them. The real problem that you can't see, because your brain has been programmed to not see it, is that the U.S.A. empire is the worst in the history of mankind and it showed all its cracks and flaws in less than a century. Imagine how failing so hard and still claiming victory sounds to 90% of the world's population not brainwashed by the U.S. propaganda...
- 6P58r3MXJSLi 4mo ago
  it's so funny when the stupid americans (from the U.S.A, because America is the whole continent and it's full of very intelligent people) can't stand that communism won over capitalism a century ago. Communism won, you heard it right, because it still means to the *whole World* freedom and empowerment of the working classes, except for stupid americans - there are intelligent americans, mind you. maybe a link with images and a voice over will be easier to understand for people like you https://www.instagram.com/reel/DZ0k_07Tqse/?igsh=MWVmcndnNzRzZnp3cg== https://www.instagram.com/reel/DZ0k_07Tqse/?igsh=MWVmcndnNzR...