4 ms·

Disabling alerts is the second thing I do to a new handset (after rooting) - including Presidential alerts. The Amber alerts I got were often hundreds of miles

Disabling alerts is the second thing I do to a new handset (after rooting) - including Presidential alerts. The Amber alerts I got were often hundreds of miles away. But even if they were closer - say only 25 mi away, I'm still not going to be any help. Weather alerts weren't much better. Having my device sound the klaxons over Red Flag warnings conditioned me to ignore all alerts.

fc417fc802 4mo ago
While I understand how we arrived at this point I find these centralized systems with special privileges frustrating. That they have repeatedly exhibited severe vulnerabilities and mismanagement is just the cherry on top. There ought to be a specification of an open protocol that includes certificate based authentication. I should be able to have my pick of which app to use and then subscribe to whatever feeds I'm interested in from anywhere in the world. In addition the local network operator should advertise various local feeds. What I'm describing is about as technically complicated as RSS plus public keys but as usual even moderate technical competency is a bridge too far for the government.
- harrall 4mo ago
  It’s not a technical problem. And the problem is that it’s not centralized. Everyone and their mom has their own system, managed by different people with different standards. It’s like USB cables — yes there are strict technical standards but when you have a million different manufacturers, they all do it differently and some cut corners and bend the rules how they want to. Look at how two different cities handle their water supply or their police — different management, different priorities.
  - fc417fc802 4mo ago
    > It’s not a technical problem. I agree. It's a lack of technical proficiency on the part of the world's government's problem, which is another way of saying it's a political problem. > And the problem is that it’s not centralized. It is, though. The implementation might not be uniform but the architecture is inherently centralized. Subscribers do not get to pick and choose sources, that is decided by the network operator (AFAIK). Consider, if BigCo wanted the ability to push alerts to people on their campus (who consent to receive them ofc) how would they go about it? If you have family who live elsewhere in the world and wanted to be apprised of natural disasters how would you subscribe to receive those alerts?
    - inigyou 4mo ago
      What emergency alerts would BigCo push to people on its campus? There would be no consent btw, they'd just fire anyone who didn't enable the alerts.
      - fc417fc802 4mo ago
        Well yes, there are many things that you must consent to as a condition of employment. Nothing new there. I have no idea what they would push, the point is that certain large institutions may have a legitimate interest in reaching users on the premise from time to time. Airports, stadiums, and theme parks immediately come to mind. Anywhere there's a large gathering of people over a wide area which complicates any emergency response. Why can't the local PD push out an alert to a particular neighborhood if they deem it useful for whatever reason? As long as they didn't spam me I'd voluntarily subscribe to that. As it currently stands I believe (at least in my state) they would have to escalate to a statewide institution and even then I don't understand the targeting to be particularly fine grained. On top of all that alerts aren't currently authenticated.
        inigyou 4mo ago
        Consent under threat of starvation isn't consent.
      - kaikai 4mo ago
        Active shooter, chemical spill, any kind of building emergency like water stoppages. And then if it wasn’t tightly controlled and carefully managed, probably things like social events with free snacks, company all hands announcements, and single cars blocking someone into a parking spot. I see the usefulness of more fine-grained subscription, but also see the abuse potential from giving more people access.
        fc417fc802 4mo ago
        > but also see the abuse potential from giving more people access. If the end user has full control over subscriptions then spam will simply result in silencing or unsubscribing. As opposed to right now where it's all or nothing and it isn't even authenticated. So for example either I get spammed with amber alerts from 100 miles away or I opt out of wildfire warnings. Not a great trade off.
- sneak 4mo ago
  Users have no interest in sysadminning their phones in this manner.
  - gpvos 4mo ago
    I think it would increase their trust in the phone system if they could, even if they don't use it in practice.
  - fc417fc802 4mo ago
    They wouldn't need to. By default the tower would send along the signatures for the proper local channel(s) and by default the OS would ship with an app that blindly subscribed to those. The difference out of the box would be that the sources were properly authenticated. For users that wish to configure such things the difference would be that they could select the app of their choice (fixes the terrible UX), select the sources of their choice (not limited to those advertised by the tower), and filter as they pleased (fixes all the false alarms). I think this is more useful that it might appear at first glance. Consider for example airports where the flexibility could be quite useful during an emergency response. Many venues would benefit from being able to send announcements of varying levels of importance. Nearly all of us walk around with network connected computers on our person yet our systems lack robust support for such basic functionality.
alister 4mo ago
> Disabling alerts is the second thing I do to a new handset Except you can't in Canada. The Canadian government has made the alerts mandatory. The option to disable alerts in not present in settings menu (at least on iPhones). You can disable alerts in Brazil. So in one sense, Brazil is more free than Canada.
- gucci-on-fleek 4mo ago
  > The Canadian government has made the alerts mandatory. The option to disable alerts in not present in settings menu (at least on iPhones). I'm Canadian too, and I'm able to toggle all the options off on my Android phone, it just does absolutely nothing and all the alerts still come through.
  - lacunary 4mo ago
    so, the option to disable alerts is not present in the settings menu, despite appearances
- WarOnPrivacy 4mo ago
  >> Disabling alerts is the second thing I do to a new handset > Except you can't in Canada. The Canadian government has made the alerts mandatory. Same for USG and Presidential alerts. I disable them anyway - which I can do after rooting. For one phone I deleted the PotUS alerts file. On another one I edited a config file. On my current handset, I disabled the wireless alert system.
  - gucci-on-fleek 4mo ago
    > Same for USG and Presidential alerts. The problem is that Canada ignores all of the different categories, and just sends everything out as a presidential alert. > I disable them anyway - which I can do after rooting Yeah, I used to root my phone and do the same thing, but I don't any more since rooting is too easy to detect with hardware-backed Play integrity these days :(
- wolvoleo 4mo ago
Onavo 4mo ago
The biggest issue is that Amber alerts are abused for both kidnappings and abductions. In a lot of jurisdictions, the term "abduction" is used for cases of domestic disputes e.g the divorced mom left the state with the kid when she wasn't supposed to etc. I really disagree with Amber alerts being issued in cases where there's no immediate risk of harm to the child, and especially if the child is a teenager. They can damn well decide who they want to be with themselves. The type of stuff that's better off being handled in family courts with contempt of court orders shouldn't be aired out like dirty laundry and domestic disputes should not wake up the entire city. It sucks for the parties involved but there are much bigger fish to fry and actual kidnappings and human trafficking to worry about than to cry wolf across the mobile network every time kids get caught in the crosshairs of a bad relationship. Next time when you get an Amber alert actually read and check up on the background story.
- sidewndr46 4mo ago
  Have you ever been involved in a child custody dispute? It goes way beyond "mom left the state with the kid"
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
pastakatsu 4mo ago
That's all well and good when you dont live in an earthquake or tsunami area I guess (which is California, the world's 3rd largest economy)
jen729w 4mo ago
We, tourists, were driving in one helluva rainstorm in Texas back in 2017. It was all I could do to focus on the road. (And yes, we found a spot and pulled over. A Denny's, IIRC.) Anyway, midway through this hellish journey, the car was filled with terror. What the hell? Just pure raw audio chaos. Neither of us knew what was going on. It was my phone, of course. Helpfully telling me that it was raining, via some absurd bust-through-my-DND 'alert'. Not helpful.
abc123abc123 4mo ago
This is the way! One jurisdiction where I resided for a while loved these alerts. A rain cloud, warm weather, too cold, too warm, the phone was beeping at least 1 or 2 times a month. Fortunately my trusty chinese produced Nokia allowed me to turn all of it off to get some peace.
numpad0 4mo ago
The 4G/5G Public Warning System is fundamentally designed for instantaneous earthquake and tsunami response. It's a bit like modern day equivalent of air raid sirens, or incoming nuke alerts, even. And as such, it's just unfit for things that don't require immediate and full alert. AMBER alerts are just not good use of it.
- inigyou 4mo ago
  It's another instance of: give a politician a fish and watch him smear it on the walls to stink up the place, throw it in the garbage and then complain he's still hungry.
  - beng-nl 4mo ago
    What happens when you teach him to fish :-(
    - inigyou 4mo ago
      You can't, they're incapable of learning.
  - colonCapitalDee 4mo ago
    Hey, that's what the people want
wolvoleo 4mo ago
Here in Spain the alerts completely ignore my settings. They sound even when I turn them off on my Samsung. And they send them way too frequently, since the floods in Valencia last year they are constantly bothering us with minor weather issues, afraid they'll get blamed. We don't have presidents here but they mark everything at the highest alert level.
lucasfcosta 4mo ago
You cannot disable maximum severity cell broadcast alerts on the iPhone.
- echoangle 4mo ago
  You also can’t root an iPhone so I think they’re not talking about that
redsocksfan45 4mo ago
[dead]
astura 4mo ago
>even if they were closer - say only 25 mi away, I'm still not going to be any help. Even if you help the cops locate the kidnapping victim, they might just murder her. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Savannah_Graziano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Savannah_Graziano

fc417fc802 4mo ago

While I understand how we arrived at this point I find these centralized systems with special privileges frustrating. That they have repeatedly exhibited severe vulnerabilities and mismanagement is just the cherry on top. There ought to be a specification of an open protocol that includes certificate based authentication. I should be able to have my pick of which app to use and then subscribe to whatever feeds I'm interested in from anywhere in the world. In addition the local network operator should advertise various local feeds. What I'm describing is about as technically complicated as RSS plus public keys but as usual even moderate technical competency is a bridge too far for the government.

harrall 4mo ago
It’s not a technical problem. And the problem is that it’s not centralized. Everyone and their mom has their own system, managed by different people with different standards. It’s like USB cables — yes there are strict technical standards but when you have a million different manufacturers, they all do it differently and some cut corners and bend the rules how they want to. Look at how two different cities handle their water supply or their police — different management, different priorities.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  > It’s not a technical problem. I agree. It's a lack of technical proficiency on the part of the world's government's problem, which is another way of saying it's a political problem. > And the problem is that it’s not centralized. It is, though. The implementation might not be uniform but the architecture is inherently centralized. Subscribers do not get to pick and choose sources, that is decided by the network operator (AFAIK). Consider, if BigCo wanted the ability to push alerts to people on their campus (who consent to receive them ofc) how would they go about it? If you have family who live elsewhere in the world and wanted to be apprised of natural disasters how would you subscribe to receive those alerts?
  - inigyou 4mo ago
    What emergency alerts would BigCo push to people on its campus? There would be no consent btw, they'd just fire anyone who didn't enable the alerts.
    - fc417fc802 4mo ago
      Well yes, there are many things that you must consent to as a condition of employment. Nothing new there. I have no idea what they would push, the point is that certain large institutions may have a legitimate interest in reaching users on the premise from time to time. Airports, stadiums, and theme parks immediately come to mind. Anywhere there's a large gathering of people over a wide area which complicates any emergency response. Why can't the local PD push out an alert to a particular neighborhood if they deem it useful for whatever reason? As long as they didn't spam me I'd voluntarily subscribe to that. As it currently stands I believe (at least in my state) they would have to escalate to a statewide institution and even then I don't understand the targeting to be particularly fine grained. On top of all that alerts aren't currently authenticated.
      - inigyou 4mo ago
        Consent under threat of starvation isn't consent.
    - kaikai 4mo ago
      Active shooter, chemical spill, any kind of building emergency like water stoppages. And then if it wasn’t tightly controlled and carefully managed, probably things like social events with free snacks, company all hands announcements, and single cars blocking someone into a parking spot. I see the usefulness of more fine-grained subscription, but also see the abuse potential from giving more people access.
      - fc417fc802 4mo ago
        > but also see the abuse potential from giving more people access. If the end user has full control over subscriptions then spam will simply result in silencing or unsubscribing. As opposed to right now where it's all or nothing and it isn't even authenticated. So for example either I get spammed with amber alerts from 100 miles away or I opt out of wildfire warnings. Not a great trade off.
sneak 4mo ago
Users have no interest in sysadminning their phones in this manner.
- gpvos 4mo ago
  I think it would increase their trust in the phone system if they could, even if they don't use it in practice.
- fc417fc802 4mo ago
  They wouldn't need to. By default the tower would send along the signatures for the proper local channel(s) and by default the OS would ship with an app that blindly subscribed to those. The difference out of the box would be that the sources were properly authenticated. For users that wish to configure such things the difference would be that they could select the app of their choice (fixes the terrible UX), select the sources of their choice (not limited to those advertised by the tower), and filter as they pleased (fixes all the false alarms). I think this is more useful that it might appear at first glance. Consider for example airports where the flexibility could be quite useful during an emergency response. Many venues would benefit from being able to send announcements of varying levels of importance. Nearly all of us walk around with network connected computers on our person yet our systems lack robust support for such basic functionality.

alister 4mo ago

> Disabling alerts is the second thing I do to a new handset Except you can't in Canada. The Canadian government has made the alerts mandatory. The option to disable alerts in not present in settings menu (at least on iPhones). You can disable alerts in Brazil. So in one sense, Brazil is more free than Canada.

gucci-on-fleek 4mo ago
> The Canadian government has made the alerts mandatory. The option to disable alerts in not present in settings menu (at least on iPhones). I'm Canadian too, and I'm able to toggle all the options off on my Android phone, it just does absolutely nothing and all the alerts still come through.
- lacunary 4mo ago
  so, the option to disable alerts is not present in the settings menu, despite appearances
WarOnPrivacy 4mo ago
>> Disabling alerts is the second thing I do to a new handset > Except you can't in Canada. The Canadian government has made the alerts mandatory. Same for USG and Presidential alerts. I disable them anyway - which I can do after rooting. For one phone I deleted the PotUS alerts file. On another one I edited a config file. On my current handset, I disabled the wireless alert system.
- gucci-on-fleek 4mo ago
  > Same for USG and Presidential alerts. The problem is that Canada ignores all of the different categories, and just sends everything out as a presidential alert. > I disable them anyway - which I can do after rooting Yeah, I used to root my phone and do the same thing, but I don't any more since rooting is too easy to detect with hardware-backed Play integrity these days :(
wolvoleo 4mo ago

Onavo 4mo ago

The biggest issue is that Amber alerts are abused for both kidnappings and abductions. In a lot of jurisdictions, the term "abduction" is used for cases of domestic disputes e.g the divorced mom left the state with the kid when she wasn't supposed to etc. I really disagree with Amber alerts being issued in cases where there's no immediate risk of harm to the child, and especially if the child is a teenager. They can damn well decide who they want to be with themselves. The type of stuff that's better off being handled in family courts with contempt of court orders shouldn't be aired out like dirty laundry and domestic disputes should not wake up the entire city. It sucks for the parties involved but there are much bigger fish to fry and actual kidnappings and human trafficking to worry about than to cry wolf across the mobile network every time kids get caught in the crosshairs of a bad relationship. Next time when you get an Amber alert actually read and check up on the background story.

sidewndr46 4mo ago
Have you ever been involved in a child custody dispute? It goes way beyond "mom left the state with the kid"

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

pastakatsu 4mo ago

That's all well and good when you dont live in an earthquake or tsunami area I guess (which is California, the world's 3rd largest economy)

jen729w 4mo ago

We, tourists, were driving in one helluva rainstorm in Texas back in 2017. It was all I could do to focus on the road. (And yes, we found a spot and pulled over. A Denny's, IIRC.) Anyway, midway through this hellish journey, the car was filled with terror. What the hell? Just pure raw audio chaos. Neither of us knew what was going on. It was my phone, of course. Helpfully telling me that it was raining, via some absurd bust-through-my-DND 'alert'. Not helpful.

abc123abc123 4mo ago

This is the way! One jurisdiction where I resided for a while loved these alerts. A rain cloud, warm weather, too cold, too warm, the phone was beeping at least 1 or 2 times a month. Fortunately my trusty chinese produced Nokia allowed me to turn all of it off to get some peace.

numpad0 4mo ago

The 4G/5G Public Warning System is fundamentally designed for instantaneous earthquake and tsunami response. It's a bit like modern day equivalent of air raid sirens, or incoming nuke alerts, even. And as such, it's just unfit for things that don't require immediate and full alert. AMBER alerts are just not good use of it.

inigyou 4mo ago
It's another instance of: give a politician a fish and watch him smear it on the walls to stink up the place, throw it in the garbage and then complain he's still hungry.
- beng-nl 4mo ago
  What happens when you teach him to fish :-(
  - inigyou 4mo ago
    You can't, they're incapable of learning.
- colonCapitalDee 4mo ago
  Hey, that's what the people want

wolvoleo 4mo ago

Here in Spain the alerts completely ignore my settings. They sound even when I turn them off on my Samsung. And they send them way too frequently, since the floods in Valencia last year they are constantly bothering us with minor weather issues, afraid they'll get blamed. We don't have presidents here but they mark everything at the highest alert level.

lucasfcosta 4mo ago

You cannot disable maximum severity cell broadcast alerts on the iPhone.

echoangle 4mo ago
You also can’t root an iPhone so I think they’re not talking about that

redsocksfan45 4mo ago

[dead]

astura 4mo ago

>even if they were closer - say only 25 mi away, I'm still not going to be any help. Even if you help the cops locate the kidnapping victim, they might just murder her. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Savannah_Graziano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Savannah_Graziano