3 ms·

I briefly entertained flying planes as a hobby. I live next to a small-ish local airfield and a coworker of mine got his license there. Then I learned more abou

I briefly entertained flying planes as a hobby. I live next to a small-ish local airfield and a coworker of mine got his license there. Then I learned more about it, and there's way to many accidents like these for me to be comfortable with the risk I'd be taking. I have no issue with flying commercial planes, but I guess I don't trust myself _and_ the smaller planes enough to do this. RIP Claude, horrible way to die.

miketery 4mo ago
I got my glider license at 16 and private at 17. Majority of accidents are human error. Though yes an accident with a plane is much costlier than one with a car. I encourage you to read NTSB accident reports. The work the investigators do and the reports they assemble are unparalleled. There are also good parallels to complex systems in general.
- gpm 4mo ago
  It seems like unjustifiable hubris to assume that I'm significantly less susceptible to human error than the average person that decides to become a pilot.
  - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
    If you're even thinking about the danger, it's absolutely justifiable to believe you're above the average already. The average person has zero regard for their own safety; governments have to literally force people to wear seatbelts in cars or helmets on motorcycles because they won't do it without threat of financial penalty.
    - toss1 4mo ago
      Indeed most of them wont do it without threat OTOH, there are those, particularly those who actually get training and practice in the high-performance zone, who realize the physics of the situation, and feel positively naked driving out without a seatbelt/harness, or helmet where appropriate.
    - tracerbulletx 4mo ago
      "the average person that decides to become a pilot." I don't know if this was added in an edit, but it doesn't currently say the average person. I'm pretty sure the average person trying to become a pilot thinks about the danger.
      - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
        It wasn't added in an edit. I simply don't believe there's a meaningful difference. "The average person who decides to ride a motorcycle" still will not wear a helmet without government intervention, and I don't see any evidence that the average pilot is any different. As others point out, the causes of pilot fatalities are recorded for review, and indicate that a similar level of carelessness can be found in many pilots, who eg. choose to fly in inclement weather when not doing so was an option, and pay for it with their lives. You don't need to be some incredible aviation ace to minimise the risks, you simply need to actually care about your own safety and make conscious decisions not to engage in wantonly reckless behaviour.
    - cucumber3732842 4mo ago
      This strikes me as the kind of thing certain parts of the internet tell themselves to justify a feeling of superiority but probably isn't true. The guy who lives a dangerous life and has a ton of near misses probably thinks about it a lot more than average but it's not gonna change his behavior so thinking about it really isn't worth anything.
      - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
        I suggest looking up statistics about seatbelt usage rates before legislation. I think you are underestimating how low the bar for personal safety is. In fact, the point I am making is explicitly not about being superior. You don't have to be an amazing driver/rider/pilot, you simply have to give a single fuck about your safety. Most people just don't.
  - EvanAnderson 4mo ago
    I think you can take steps to inoculate yourself to some extent. My father subscribed to a newsletter that summarized NTSB general aviation mishap reports when he got his Private Pilot license back in the late 80s. I read them too and was astonished at how many mishaps were very bad judgement calls made by pilots-- flying when the weather wasn't fit, not checking fuel levels, flying after having experienced engine trouble, etc. I think it should be required reading for every new pilot.
  - wolvoleo 4mo ago
    Most human error happens because pilots knowingly ignore safety. "Get-there-itis" for example. You really wanna get home but the weather is an edge case. If you were flying for fun you would stay on the ground but you convince yourself it's not that bad. That kinda thing. Or an engine running a bit rough, "but it's probably ok I'll have it checked next week". What you need is discipline to say no. That's the root cause of most of these errors. And yes that can be learned. Every flying club has a few of these people that are talked about in hushed tones at the end of the day when the beers come out. And almost never was the problem their flying skill. Even if it was it's usually something preventable too. Trying to fix an approach when going around would have been the clear choice. Letting mistakes pile up and not restarting from a known safe position.
    - crote 4mo ago
      But as they already said: unjustifiable hubris to assume it can't happen to you. Humans make mistakes all. the. time., and you're a human. It is pretty much guaranteed that you are making the exact same kind of mistakes in your day-to-day life. It just doesn't kill you because a broken car merely leaves you stranded and a broken pipe in your home merely causes some financial damage. Do the same with flying and you'll crash so you'll die. In my opinion private planes should be treated like they are actively trying to kill you, and it is only a matter of time before you will become complacent and make a mistake.
      - cpncrunch 4mo ago
        Most of the time it's the decisions that kill, rather than pure mistakes. It's possible to mitigate that risk. Good decisions (such as using checklists) can also mitigate some of the mistakes. Of course when you're dealing with a light twin with geared turbocharged engines, there are additional risks from mechanical failures (such as engine fires), as well as mistakes that can happen when addressing an engine failure (shutting down the wrong engine, getting too slow and doing a Vmc roll, etc). To be honest I would never fly in any light twin other than a Seminole (which I did my multi rating in).
      - wolvoleo 4mo ago
- causal 4mo ago
  Too many people read "human error" as "human preventable" rather than "a thing you will also do because you are human"
  - user_7832 4mo ago
    Typically, in places like NTSB reports (or GA - private aviation - accidents in general), it often is human preventable. But the thing is different people have very different tolerance limits. Pilot A might skip flying if the weather looks bad. Pilot B might go "well the storm's actually only at x location on my route, I'll fly around it". Pilot C might insist on more fuel but take the flight. I'm not pretending it's possible to avoid (all) accidents with enough care - but if you look at NTSB stats, a vast majority of accidents were things that were quite easily avoidable. Getting an instrument rating, flying in a plane with a weather radar that can go high (pressurized, beyond 40,000 feet or whereabouts), having another spare pilot and spare engine, and following the "big boy" scheduled airline (part 121) protocols and rules and minimums will almost certainly help avoid 50%+ (very conservatively) of GA accidents causes. Yes, you still need to be careful and not fall victim to things like Get-there-itis (which pushes pilots to fly when they shouldn't because they want to get there). However... it's a swiss cheese model of accident avoidance. Remove as many factors from your side as you can, do your checklists, IMSAFE etc, and you're very likely to be (physically) okay. Oh, and get a Cirrus with a parachute while we're at it. They've got auto land on their new planes too iirc.
    - causal 4mo ago
      I think it's important to multiply "likelihood of the human making a mistake" by "how many times the human must avoid a mistake". If your hobby presents 100 avoidable-but-life-threatening mistakes an hour, it's a dangerous hobby.
      - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
        Driving a car presents 100 avoidable-but-life-threatening-potential-mistakes an hour. I'm personally exceptionally risk-averse and avoid cars for that reason, but I don't think that level of risk aversion necessarily needs to be typical. It's certainly worth pointing out that a safety-conscious person can significantly reduce the risk of a given activity, even if they can't eliminate it completely. And, to be honest, I'd rather encourage risk-aware pilots to take up the hobby! Airliner pilots have to come from somewhere, and I'd prefer if my airline pilot was one who considered the risks of flying and did it anyways rather than having an airline pilot who is totally reckless and simply doesn't care about risks.
- deleted 4mo ago
  [deleted]
bombcar 4mo ago
I had a similar decision to make (pilot or motorbike) and the fact that 60%+ of aviation deaths are pilot error and something like 60%+ of motorcycle crashes are NOT the rider's fault - led me to be a pilot. At least then I can try to make good decisions, e.g, DO NOT FLY INTO WEATHER.
- _jss 4mo ago
  And a lot of the pilot deaths are not because of in-the-moment skill deficiencies. Stick and rudder skills aren't that useful with fuel exhaustion and bad weather planning. It's much easier to stay safer in a plane vs motorcycle. I wish people treated cars and motorcycles properly, especially in the US. Until then, no motorcycles for me either :(
  - Insanity 4mo ago
    Yeah, I think the rules for motorcycles are also less stringent in Canada than in EU. And road conditions often not great. Of course the 6 months of winter in Toronto also make it less appealing to drive a motorcycle.
- gritspants 4mo ago
  MC rider. Many accidents occur during the early years, particularly as the new rider gets comfortable. There's a transition period where your muscle memory kicks in for basic riding skills, but not developed enough to keep you out of trouble. It is an incredible feeling of false confidence that makes you feel invincible. It's possible to be 'smart' and reduce risk during this period, but I'm not advocating people generally go out and start riding either.
  - throw0101a 4mo ago
    > MC rider. Many accidents occur during the early years, particularly as the new rider gets comfortable. A large portion (half?) of crashes also involve alcohol.
    - 4mo ago
k8sToGo 4mo ago
It is the same reason I decided against getting a motorcycle (I also decided against getting a PPL as well).
wolvoleo 4mo ago
Well it's not the safest thing but you control most of that. You decide whether to take off or not, what weather you accept, whether to do a proper walkaround. Usually accidents are due to people taking too many risks. Yes it can happen but you can prevent a lot by being a stickler for safety. And you can put down a GA aircraft in a field easily. When I flew gliders they always taught us to constantly evaluate every field you see as a potential landing site. This behaviour is not focused on enough for powered flying IMO. My instructor would suddenly put his hands over my eyes and say "emergency, where are you putting down right now?" And not having a good answer would have you off the solo list for a week or so. It really helped keeping this in the back of the mind. I've not seen that in powered flying at all.
- cucumber3732842 4mo ago
  It's a safe hobby if you want to fly a plane. It's not a safe hobby if you want to have fun flying the plane. It's like the difference between sports car enthusiasts who are proud of how long their tires and brakes last vs the ones who are proud of how short they last.
  - wolvoleo 4mo ago
    Well, safely flying a plane can be fun too.

miketery 4mo ago

I got my glider license at 16 and private at 17. Majority of accidents are human error. Though yes an accident with a plane is much costlier than one with a car. I encourage you to read NTSB accident reports. The work the investigators do and the reports they assemble are unparalleled. There are also good parallels to complex systems in general.

gpm 4mo ago
It seems like unjustifiable hubris to assume that I'm significantly less susceptible to human error than the average person that decides to become a pilot.
- applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
  If you're even thinking about the danger, it's absolutely justifiable to believe you're above the average already. The average person has zero regard for their own safety; governments have to literally force people to wear seatbelts in cars or helmets on motorcycles because they won't do it without threat of financial penalty.
  - toss1 4mo ago
    Indeed most of them wont do it without threat OTOH, there are those, particularly those who actually get training and practice in the high-performance zone, who realize the physics of the situation, and feel positively naked driving out without a seatbelt/harness, or helmet where appropriate.
  - tracerbulletx 4mo ago
    "the average person that decides to become a pilot." I don't know if this was added in an edit, but it doesn't currently say the average person. I'm pretty sure the average person trying to become a pilot thinks about the danger.
    - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
      It wasn't added in an edit. I simply don't believe there's a meaningful difference. "The average person who decides to ride a motorcycle" still will not wear a helmet without government intervention, and I don't see any evidence that the average pilot is any different. As others point out, the causes of pilot fatalities are recorded for review, and indicate that a similar level of carelessness can be found in many pilots, who eg. choose to fly in inclement weather when not doing so was an option, and pay for it with their lives. You don't need to be some incredible aviation ace to minimise the risks, you simply need to actually care about your own safety and make conscious decisions not to engage in wantonly reckless behaviour.
  - cucumber3732842 4mo ago
    This strikes me as the kind of thing certain parts of the internet tell themselves to justify a feeling of superiority but probably isn't true. The guy who lives a dangerous life and has a ton of near misses probably thinks about it a lot more than average but it's not gonna change his behavior so thinking about it really isn't worth anything.
    - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
      I suggest looking up statistics about seatbelt usage rates before legislation. I think you are underestimating how low the bar for personal safety is. In fact, the point I am making is explicitly not about being superior. You don't have to be an amazing driver/rider/pilot, you simply have to give a single fuck about your safety. Most people just don't.
- EvanAnderson 4mo ago
  I think you can take steps to inoculate yourself to some extent. My father subscribed to a newsletter that summarized NTSB general aviation mishap reports when he got his Private Pilot license back in the late 80s. I read them too and was astonished at how many mishaps were very bad judgement calls made by pilots-- flying when the weather wasn't fit, not checking fuel levels, flying after having experienced engine trouble, etc. I think it should be required reading for every new pilot.
- wolvoleo 4mo ago
  Most human error happens because pilots knowingly ignore safety. "Get-there-itis" for example. You really wanna get home but the weather is an edge case. If you were flying for fun you would stay on the ground but you convince yourself it's not that bad. That kinda thing. Or an engine running a bit rough, "but it's probably ok I'll have it checked next week". What you need is discipline to say no. That's the root cause of most of these errors. And yes that can be learned. Every flying club has a few of these people that are talked about in hushed tones at the end of the day when the beers come out. And almost never was the problem their flying skill. Even if it was it's usually something preventable too. Trying to fix an approach when going around would have been the clear choice. Letting mistakes pile up and not restarting from a known safe position.
  - crote 4mo ago
    But as they already said: unjustifiable hubris to assume it can't happen to you. Humans make mistakes all. the. time., and you're a human. It is pretty much guaranteed that you are making the exact same kind of mistakes in your day-to-day life. It just doesn't kill you because a broken car merely leaves you stranded and a broken pipe in your home merely causes some financial damage. Do the same with flying and you'll crash so you'll die. In my opinion private planes should be treated like they are actively trying to kill you, and it is only a matter of time before you will become complacent and make a mistake.
    - cpncrunch 4mo ago
      Most of the time it's the decisions that kill, rather than pure mistakes. It's possible to mitigate that risk. Good decisions (such as using checklists) can also mitigate some of the mistakes. Of course when you're dealing with a light twin with geared turbocharged engines, there are additional risks from mechanical failures (such as engine fires), as well as mistakes that can happen when addressing an engine failure (shutting down the wrong engine, getting too slow and doing a Vmc roll, etc). To be honest I would never fly in any light twin other than a Seminole (which I did my multi rating in).
    - wolvoleo 4mo ago
causal 4mo ago
Too many people read "human error" as "human preventable" rather than "a thing you will also do because you are human"
- user_7832 4mo ago
  Typically, in places like NTSB reports (or GA - private aviation - accidents in general), it often is human preventable. But the thing is different people have very different tolerance limits. Pilot A might skip flying if the weather looks bad. Pilot B might go "well the storm's actually only at x location on my route, I'll fly around it". Pilot C might insist on more fuel but take the flight. I'm not pretending it's possible to avoid (all) accidents with enough care - but if you look at NTSB stats, a vast majority of accidents were things that were quite easily avoidable. Getting an instrument rating, flying in a plane with a weather radar that can go high (pressurized, beyond 40,000 feet or whereabouts), having another spare pilot and spare engine, and following the "big boy" scheduled airline (part 121) protocols and rules and minimums will almost certainly help avoid 50%+ (very conservatively) of GA accidents causes. Yes, you still need to be careful and not fall victim to things like Get-there-itis (which pushes pilots to fly when they shouldn't because they want to get there). However... it's a swiss cheese model of accident avoidance. Remove as many factors from your side as you can, do your checklists, IMSAFE etc, and you're very likely to be (physically) okay. Oh, and get a Cirrus with a parachute while we're at it. They've got auto land on their new planes too iirc.
  - causal 4mo ago
    I think it's important to multiply "likelihood of the human making a mistake" by "how many times the human must avoid a mistake". If your hobby presents 100 avoidable-but-life-threatening mistakes an hour, it's a dangerous hobby.
    - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
      Driving a car presents 100 avoidable-but-life-threatening-potential-mistakes an hour. I'm personally exceptionally risk-averse and avoid cars for that reason, but I don't think that level of risk aversion necessarily needs to be typical. It's certainly worth pointing out that a safety-conscious person can significantly reduce the risk of a given activity, even if they can't eliminate it completely. And, to be honest, I'd rather encourage risk-aware pilots to take up the hobby! Airliner pilots have to come from somewhere, and I'd prefer if my airline pilot was one who considered the risks of flying and did it anyways rather than having an airline pilot who is totally reckless and simply doesn't care about risks.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]

bombcar 4mo ago

I had a similar decision to make (pilot or motorbike) and the fact that 60%+ of aviation deaths are pilot error and something like 60%+ of motorcycle crashes are NOT the rider's fault - led me to be a pilot. At least then I can try to make good decisions, e.g, DO NOT FLY INTO WEATHER.

_jss 4mo ago
And a lot of the pilot deaths are not because of in-the-moment skill deficiencies. Stick and rudder skills aren't that useful with fuel exhaustion and bad weather planning. It's much easier to stay safer in a plane vs motorcycle. I wish people treated cars and motorcycles properly, especially in the US. Until then, no motorcycles for me either :(
- Insanity 4mo ago
  Yeah, I think the rules for motorcycles are also less stringent in Canada than in EU. And road conditions often not great. Of course the 6 months of winter in Toronto also make it less appealing to drive a motorcycle.
gritspants 4mo ago
MC rider. Many accidents occur during the early years, particularly as the new rider gets comfortable. There's a transition period where your muscle memory kicks in for basic riding skills, but not developed enough to keep you out of trouble. It is an incredible feeling of false confidence that makes you feel invincible. It's possible to be 'smart' and reduce risk during this period, but I'm not advocating people generally go out and start riding either.
- throw0101a 4mo ago
  > MC rider. Many accidents occur during the early years, particularly as the new rider gets comfortable. A large portion (half?) of crashes also involve alcohol.
  - 4mo ago

k8sToGo 4mo ago

It is the same reason I decided against getting a motorcycle (I also decided against getting a PPL as well).

wolvoleo 4mo ago

Well it's not the safest thing but you control most of that. You decide whether to take off or not, what weather you accept, whether to do a proper walkaround. Usually accidents are due to people taking too many risks. Yes it can happen but you can prevent a lot by being a stickler for safety. And you can put down a GA aircraft in a field easily. When I flew gliders they always taught us to constantly evaluate every field you see as a potential landing site. This behaviour is not focused on enough for powered flying IMO. My instructor would suddenly put his hands over my eyes and say "emergency, where are you putting down right now?" And not having a good answer would have you off the solo list for a week or so. It really helped keeping this in the back of the mind. I've not seen that in powered flying at all.

cucumber3732842 4mo ago
It's a safe hobby if you want to fly a plane. It's not a safe hobby if you want to have fun flying the plane. It's like the difference between sports car enthusiasts who are proud of how long their tires and brakes last vs the ones who are proud of how short they last.
- wolvoleo 4mo ago
  Well, safely flying a plane can be fun too.