4 ms·

"I personally can't conceive of how one might built this, and I must be a million times smarter than people 4500 years ago, ergo people didn't build this." is h

"I personally can't conceive of how one might built this, and I must be a million times smarter than people 4500 years ago, ergo people didn't build this." is how the Ancient Aliens theory always sounds to me.

alberth 4mo ago
Ancient Aliens conflates two very different ideas. The show’s core argument is that ancient civilizations were more advanced than we give them credit for. That may be true, but “more advanced” does not mean they had superior technology or help from aliens. It can simply mean they had technical knowledge, methods, or craftsmanship that we have since lost or forgotten. Elon Musk has made a similar point about the US space program. We landed on the moon more than 50 years ago, but in some ways we now have to relearn how to do it (because we forgot how). That does not mean we had better technology in the 1960s, and it certainly does not mean aliens were involved. It means knowledge, systems, expertise, and institutional capability can fade over time. And that doesn't mean aliens were involved (as the tvshow would make you believe).
- thewebguyd 4mo ago
  > It means knowledge, systems, expertise, and institutional capability can fade over time This has also been happening since ancient times. Famously, how to make roman concrete was lost after the fall of the empire and Europe did not reinvent high quality concrete until much later in the 18th century. They also lost entire industrial-scale manufacturing pipelines for pottery and had a regression back to crude, hand-shaped pottery. Turns out we humans have been dealing with the same human problems for hundreds of thousands of years.
  - theturtletalks 4mo ago
    This reminds me of Gall’s Law. You cannot create a complex system, you must create a simple system and improve it over time. The issue arises when you get so many iterations in, you’ve forgotten the process. Any catastrophic event can mean you won’t be able to create the silicon chip or airplanes and so much other technology. Maybe I’m wrong and people and books do exist that can explain the process and human might would succeed.
    - inigyou 4mo ago
      A semiconductor company couldn't get their second plant to work until they tore it down and set it up again in an exact copy of the floor layout of the first plant. They don't know why.
      - ahazred8ta 4mo ago
        The Freefall webcomic can sympathize. http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1500/fc01415.htm http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1500/fc01415.htm
- dgellow 4mo ago
  Have we actually forgotten how to land to the moon? That sounds very fishy, I’m pretty skeptical that’s not the case, that was done at a time where we had good records and still have access to them. And it’s close enough to current time that people who worked on it are still alive (not all of course). Coming from musk makes me believe that’s not true, he’s far from a reliable narrator
  - dotancohen 4mo ago
    Many of the manufacturing processes used to make the Apollo spacecraft were not followed in the production floor - and nobody wrote those changes down. That's one well-known example of Apollo-era knowledge lost, there are a few others if you seriously care to DDG them.
    - marshray 4mo ago
      Can you see how far "some Apollo program last-minute production-floor manufacturing changes were not written down" is from "humans lost fundamental technology needed to land on the moon"?
      - throw2ih020 4mo ago
        In aerospace, those are the same statements. Those production floor changes are often the difference between a payload working or failing.
        marshray 4mo ago
        How many years did these production floor changes take to engineer?
        throw2ih020 4mo ago
        Over a period from 1960 to 1969: > Landing humans on the Moon by the end of 1969 required the most sudden burst of technological creativity, and the largest commitment of resources ($25 billion; $187 billion in 2024 US dollars)[24] ever made by any nation in peacetime. At its peak, the Apollo program employed 400,000 people and required the support of over 20,000 industrial firms and universities.[25] A large chunk of those industries and supporting academia no longer exist in the US outside the defense sector.
thewebguyd 4mo ago
There's a ton of people that, for some reason, just can't grok that humans have been largely behaviorally and biologically identical for the past 200k years. The average ancient roman plebeian's life would not look dramatically different from ours today, minus technology of course. They worked a day job, ate at thermopoliums (basically fast food), lived in crowded apartment complexes with various forms of slum lords, deal with high rent prices, and roman graffiti is littered with complaints about politicians, sports teams, and the rising cost of living. With the pyramids, we have the Wadi al-Jarf papyri, a detailed logistics logbook documenting the teams moving the stones for the great pyramids, along side payroll records much like any other spreadsheet you'll find on someone's corporate computer today. We are not so different from our ancient ancestors at all.
- comrade1234 4mo ago
  There are ideas that ancient human thinking was very different and primitive compared to modern. For example (and others): The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes (1976)
  - applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
    In much the same way there are 'ideas' that aliens built pyramids.
  - crooked-v 4mo ago
    That one is an interesting scifi premise, but deeply unpersuasive when it comes to actual humans.
    - Hikikomori 4mo ago
      It was one of the main influences for the cyberpunk Snow Crash novel.
      - shawn_w 4mo ago
        And an even bigger influence in Stephenson's first book, The Big U.
Avshalom 4mo ago
It's more specifically "I personally can't conceive of how one might built this, so non-white people definitely didn't build this"
- AdmiralAsshat 4mo ago
  My original comment was more along those lines, but then I did a quick Wiki refresher on Chariots of the Gods (possibly the origin of the popular "Ancient Aliens" push), and noted that the author included Stonehenge among his examples, so I changed course.
an0malous 4mo ago
This is a strawman argument, their real one is: "These megalithic structures would be tremendously difficult for anyone to build even today with all of our modern technology, and yet they did it hundreds of times before even inventing the wheel, in several places across the world."
- ianburrell 4mo ago
  It is a weird argument because we totally could build a Great Pyramid replica. Ships and trains hauling stone and tower cranes plopping them into place. We are really good at moving things and lifting them. It would probably be the quarries that be the bottleneck. If wanted it in concrete, would be faster. Or could do it in steel or steel/concrete with some interior space (Luxor in Las Vegas is size of smaller pyramid).
  - an0malous 4mo ago
    Like I said, the argument is that it would be very difficult, not that we couldn’t do it. As an example, you could read about the efforts to move a 250 ton obelisk from Egypt to France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_Obelisks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_Obelisks It took $16M in 2020 dollars, a special boat built just for this transportation, and five years to complete the whole relocation process. The mainstream argument is that ancient Egyptians were able to transport this same monument hundreds of miles from the quarry to Luxor with no wheels or cranes, just reed boats, sleds, and ropes. They did this hundreds or thousands of times, sometimes with granite blocks twice the size of this one. > If wanted it in concrete, would be faster. Or could do it in steel or steel/concrete with some interior space (Luxor in Las Vegas is size of smaller pyramid). There are a lot of ways the ancient Egyptians could have done this more easily as well. They didn’t have to transport granite from a quarry hundreds of miles away, they could have used softer stones from nearby quarries. They didn’t have to carve things from single-piece blocks, they could have broken it up into many smaller blocks or even bricks. They did everything the harder way, with the oldest constructions being the most difficult and precise, suggesting that there’s a lot we still don’t understand about their motivations, abilities, or the timeline.
- 4mo ago
cassepipe 4mo ago
Wait until you hear about "I don't remember leaving my phone in the toilets" ergo "There must be alternative parallel timelines we regularly jump to and from"
- krapp 4mo ago
  ...and also CERN is to blame somehow.
nonethewiser 4mo ago
Its more like “We dont know how they built it so Im not going to assume they used a 2km long ramp.”

alberth 4mo ago

Ancient Aliens conflates two very different ideas. The show’s core argument is that ancient civilizations were more advanced than we give them credit for. That may be true, but “more advanced” does not mean they had superior technology or help from aliens. It can simply mean they had technical knowledge, methods, or craftsmanship that we have since lost or forgotten. Elon Musk has made a similar point about the US space program. We landed on the moon more than 50 years ago, but in some ways we now have to relearn how to do it (because we forgot how). That does not mean we had better technology in the 1960s, and it certainly does not mean aliens were involved. It means knowledge, systems, expertise, and institutional capability can fade over time. And that doesn't mean aliens were involved (as the tvshow would make you believe).

thewebguyd 4mo ago
> It means knowledge, systems, expertise, and institutional capability can fade over time This has also been happening since ancient times. Famously, how to make roman concrete was lost after the fall of the empire and Europe did not reinvent high quality concrete until much later in the 18th century. They also lost entire industrial-scale manufacturing pipelines for pottery and had a regression back to crude, hand-shaped pottery. Turns out we humans have been dealing with the same human problems for hundreds of thousands of years.
- theturtletalks 4mo ago
  This reminds me of Gall’s Law. You cannot create a complex system, you must create a simple system and improve it over time. The issue arises when you get so many iterations in, you’ve forgotten the process. Any catastrophic event can mean you won’t be able to create the silicon chip or airplanes and so much other technology. Maybe I’m wrong and people and books do exist that can explain the process and human might would succeed.
  - inigyou 4mo ago
    A semiconductor company couldn't get their second plant to work until they tore it down and set it up again in an exact copy of the floor layout of the first plant. They don't know why.
    - ahazred8ta 4mo ago
      The Freefall webcomic can sympathize. http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1500/fc01415.htm http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1500/fc01415.htm
dgellow 4mo ago
Have we actually forgotten how to land to the moon? That sounds very fishy, I’m pretty skeptical that’s not the case, that was done at a time where we had good records and still have access to them. And it’s close enough to current time that people who worked on it are still alive (not all of course). Coming from musk makes me believe that’s not true, he’s far from a reliable narrator
- dotancohen 4mo ago
  Many of the manufacturing processes used to make the Apollo spacecraft were not followed in the production floor - and nobody wrote those changes down. That's one well-known example of Apollo-era knowledge lost, there are a few others if you seriously care to DDG them.
  - marshray 4mo ago
    Can you see how far "some Apollo program last-minute production-floor manufacturing changes were not written down" is from "humans lost fundamental technology needed to land on the moon"?
    - throw2ih020 4mo ago
      In aerospace, those are the same statements. Those production floor changes are often the difference between a payload working or failing.
      - marshray 4mo ago
        How many years did these production floor changes take to engineer?
        throw2ih020 4mo ago
        Over a period from 1960 to 1969: > Landing humans on the Moon by the end of 1969 required the most sudden burst of technological creativity, and the largest commitment of resources ($25 billion; $187 billion in 2024 US dollars)[24] ever made by any nation in peacetime. At its peak, the Apollo program employed 400,000 people and required the support of over 20,000 industrial firms and universities.[25] A large chunk of those industries and supporting academia no longer exist in the US outside the defense sector.

thewebguyd 4mo ago

There's a ton of people that, for some reason, just can't grok that humans have been largely behaviorally and biologically identical for the past 200k years. The average ancient roman plebeian's life would not look dramatically different from ours today, minus technology of course. They worked a day job, ate at thermopoliums (basically fast food), lived in crowded apartment complexes with various forms of slum lords, deal with high rent prices, and roman graffiti is littered with complaints about politicians, sports teams, and the rising cost of living. With the pyramids, we have the Wadi al-Jarf papyri, a detailed logistics logbook documenting the teams moving the stones for the great pyramids, along side payroll records much like any other spreadsheet you'll find on someone's corporate computer today. We are not so different from our ancient ancestors at all.

comrade1234 4mo ago
There are ideas that ancient human thinking was very different and primitive compared to modern. For example (and others): The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes (1976)
- applfanboysbgon 4mo ago
  In much the same way there are 'ideas' that aliens built pyramids.
- crooked-v 4mo ago
  That one is an interesting scifi premise, but deeply unpersuasive when it comes to actual humans.
  - Hikikomori 4mo ago
    It was one of the main influences for the cyberpunk Snow Crash novel.
    - shawn_w 4mo ago
      And an even bigger influence in Stephenson's first book, The Big U.

Avshalom 4mo ago

It's more specifically "I personally can't conceive of how one might built this, so non-white people definitely didn't build this"

AdmiralAsshat 4mo ago
My original comment was more along those lines, but then I did a quick Wiki refresher on Chariots of the Gods (possibly the origin of the popular "Ancient Aliens" push), and noted that the author included Stonehenge among his examples, so I changed course.

an0malous 4mo ago

This is a strawman argument, their real one is: "These megalithic structures would be tremendously difficult for anyone to build even today with all of our modern technology, and yet they did it hundreds of times before even inventing the wheel, in several places across the world."

ianburrell 4mo ago
It is a weird argument because we totally could build a Great Pyramid replica. Ships and trains hauling stone and tower cranes plopping them into place. We are really good at moving things and lifting them. It would probably be the quarries that be the bottleneck. If wanted it in concrete, would be faster. Or could do it in steel or steel/concrete with some interior space (Luxor in Las Vegas is size of smaller pyramid).
- an0malous 4mo ago
  Like I said, the argument is that it would be very difficult, not that we couldn’t do it. As an example, you could read about the efforts to move a 250 ton obelisk from Egypt to France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_Obelisks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_Obelisks It took $16M in 2020 dollars, a special boat built just for this transportation, and five years to complete the whole relocation process. The mainstream argument is that ancient Egyptians were able to transport this same monument hundreds of miles from the quarry to Luxor with no wheels or cranes, just reed boats, sleds, and ropes. They did this hundreds or thousands of times, sometimes with granite blocks twice the size of this one. > If wanted it in concrete, would be faster. Or could do it in steel or steel/concrete with some interior space (Luxor in Las Vegas is size of smaller pyramid). There are a lot of ways the ancient Egyptians could have done this more easily as well. They didn’t have to transport granite from a quarry hundreds of miles away, they could have used softer stones from nearby quarries. They didn’t have to carve things from single-piece blocks, they could have broken it up into many smaller blocks or even bricks. They did everything the harder way, with the oldest constructions being the most difficult and precise, suggesting that there’s a lot we still don’t understand about their motivations, abilities, or the timeline.
4mo ago

cassepipe 4mo ago

Wait until you hear about "I don't remember leaving my phone in the toilets" ergo "There must be alternative parallel timelines we regularly jump to and from"

krapp 4mo ago
...and also CERN is to blame somehow.

nonethewiser 4mo ago

Its more like “We dont know how they built it so Im not going to assume they used a 2km long ramp.”