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In India metro is either built by private companies in a Public Private Partnership Or by govt orgs by contracting it out. Both styles have resulted in massiv

In India metro is either built by private companies in a Public Private Partnership Or by govt orgs by contracting it out. Both styles have resulted in massive delays so much so that it has become a meme that metro will be inaugurated 100yrs into the future Maybe if Govt hired actual engineers like they do for railways then metros will be prioritised

thelastgallon 4mo ago
India has the most interesting construction projects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcRDsIjG3g8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcRDsIjG3g8 I guess this is what vibe coding in the real world looks like.
- boxed 4mo ago
  I would guess this is a consequence of people following orders. There's many people that should have refused the work along the way, but only the planner gets the blame, while I'd bet the planner was only following orders also.
  - csomar 4mo ago
    So it’s nobody’s mistake?
    - boxed 4mo ago
      No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying they are all blame worthy, and their culture itself is also blame worthy.
  - victorbjorklund 4mo ago
    People need to be able to think for themselves. I once stayed in an apartment house where I noticed a door 1.5 m up in the air on the outside of the building. When opening the door there was a small bathroom with a toilet. With no way of accessing it from the inside. Just that normal inside door on the outside wall up in the air. 100% someone in the chain made a mistake and said the door should be on the wrong wall. But no one that actually built the house stopped and say ”eh are you sure?”
    - jodrellblank 4mo ago
      Which is why we have https://old.reddit.com/r/NotMyJob/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NotMyJob/
      - victorbjorklund 4mo ago
        Thanks. That’s amazing.
porridgeraisin 4mo ago
Metro doesn't use PPP or directly public in any Indian city I can think of, they setup SPVs and actually have stable engineering and finance teams across contracts. And most of the engineers are taken from railways only in any case. And it's a really good promotion path, ministers are known to select successful metro spv administrators for lucrative roles in the state secretariat. They even have lateral movement between SPVs of different cities, e.g many top CMRL people are ex-DMRC. So the talent problem is not there. The reason for delays are more boring: land acquisition, coordination among nhai, state pwd, railways, utilities, etc etc. But overwhelmingly land acquisition is the main bottleneck. If land acquisition fails or isn't exactly as you planned then you have to tweak the project itself which ripples delays all the way into the construction contracts, safety approvals, NOCs etc etc. After you resolve that, flyovers and roads are simultaneously being constructed in most cities since they are all expanding so you have to coordinate with that. And india from pre-independence has utilities placed under the middle of the road, as opposed to the sides of the road. Now this is not an iron clad rule (nothing is, in india) but it's generally true. This means that you also have to coordinate with utilities. And most of them were laid in the last century without any record left of where they were laid, so you can't even plan ahead you dig and you find out you've slashed a utility line. Each coordination point above is an NOC and all put together it takes time.
- thewhitetulip 4mo ago
  Some metros are PPP Some are by contractors However, all are perpetually delayed Pune metro line 3's construction status was 85+% for over 1yr now Land acquisition was over a long time ago. Progress on road is just invisible despite being built by a private company which will operate it for the next 30yrs
  - porridgeraisin 4mo ago
    All Indian metros without exception are managed by SPVs. Land acquisition is not something that gets over. It is a continuous process. Then the court cases if any always show up with some delay, and that can revoke transfers. Then you have to look for alternative land parcels, which may involve minor reroutes in the worst case. It's the same with finances, everything comes in tranches, land, money, everything. > Pune You can see this entire documentation[1], make sure to click on the two section headers to reveal content. While no doubt the document might mislead you about the extent of the delay, and really % done means nothing in these projects where the unknowns are unknown, you can clearly see it's the exact coordination issues I had mentioned earlier: utility coordination, handling expanding flyovers/roads, etc. > All are perpetually delayed Because, it's not an internal organisation issue or a personnel issue (i.e "hire more engineers"). The exact organisation does not matter when the problems are of the external kind mentioned above. Now, the problems mentioned in TFA don't occur here because the SPVs house long term employees with - for government standards - fairly robust institutional knowledge. The top comment now has content refuting the article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48582433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48582433 > Look at the memes for Pune metro line 3 and for Karnataka metro (forgot which line) The same memes exist everywhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48582563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48582563 > Even though private If you want real private efficiencies, you have to give the entire responsibility of many departments to the private company. So, a near-private whole sub-municipality. Just making the metro SPV private is meaningless, although definitely better than having it under PWD... [1] https://www.pmrda.gov.in/en/pune-metro-line-3/maan-hinjawadi-shivajinagar-metro-line/ https://www.pmrda.gov.in/en/pune-metro-line-3/maan-hinjawadi...
sieve 4mo ago
Depends on the state and the political environment. Some people will deliberately sabotage projects for political reasons. The biggest problem with metros in India is the inability to provide last mile connectivity. Some cities will run buses in competition to metro lines, or provide free bus travel to women. Both actions compete against a fast mode of travel. So, it is an India problem, not a government problem.
- thewhitetulip 4mo ago
  metro construction is delayed in every state ruling party or opposition Look at the memes for Pune metro line 3 and for Karnataka metro (forgot which line)

thelastgallon 4mo ago

India has the most interesting construction projects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcRDsIjG3g8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcRDsIjG3g8 I guess this is what vibe coding in the real world looks like.

boxed 4mo ago
I would guess this is a consequence of people following orders. There's many people that should have refused the work along the way, but only the planner gets the blame, while I'd bet the planner was only following orders also.
- csomar 4mo ago
  So it’s nobody’s mistake?
  - boxed 4mo ago
    No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying they are all blame worthy, and their culture itself is also blame worthy.
- victorbjorklund 4mo ago
  People need to be able to think for themselves. I once stayed in an apartment house where I noticed a door 1.5 m up in the air on the outside of the building. When opening the door there was a small bathroom with a toilet. With no way of accessing it from the inside. Just that normal inside door on the outside wall up in the air. 100% someone in the chain made a mistake and said the door should be on the wrong wall. But no one that actually built the house stopped and say ”eh are you sure?”
  - jodrellblank 4mo ago
    Which is why we have https://old.reddit.com/r/NotMyJob/ https://old.reddit.com/r/NotMyJob/
    - victorbjorklund 4mo ago
      Thanks. That’s amazing.

porridgeraisin 4mo ago

Metro doesn't use PPP or directly public in any Indian city I can think of, they setup SPVs and actually have stable engineering and finance teams across contracts. And most of the engineers are taken from railways only in any case. And it's a really good promotion path, ministers are known to select successful metro spv administrators for lucrative roles in the state secretariat. They even have lateral movement between SPVs of different cities, e.g many top CMRL people are ex-DMRC. So the talent problem is not there. The reason for delays are more boring: land acquisition, coordination among nhai, state pwd, railways, utilities, etc etc. But overwhelmingly land acquisition is the main bottleneck. If land acquisition fails or isn't exactly as you planned then you have to tweak the project itself which ripples delays all the way into the construction contracts, safety approvals, NOCs etc etc. After you resolve that, flyovers and roads are simultaneously being constructed in most cities since they are all expanding so you have to coordinate with that. And india from pre-independence has utilities placed under the middle of the road, as opposed to the sides of the road. Now this is not an iron clad rule (nothing is, in india) but it's generally true. This means that you also have to coordinate with utilities. And most of them were laid in the last century without any record left of where they were laid, so you can't even plan ahead you dig and you find out you've slashed a utility line. Each coordination point above is an NOC and all put together it takes time.

thewhitetulip 4mo ago
Some metros are PPP Some are by contractors However, all are perpetually delayed Pune metro line 3's construction status was 85+% for over 1yr now Land acquisition was over a long time ago. Progress on road is just invisible despite being built by a private company which will operate it for the next 30yrs
- porridgeraisin 4mo ago
  All Indian metros without exception are managed by SPVs. Land acquisition is not something that gets over. It is a continuous process. Then the court cases if any always show up with some delay, and that can revoke transfers. Then you have to look for alternative land parcels, which may involve minor reroutes in the worst case. It's the same with finances, everything comes in tranches, land, money, everything. > Pune You can see this entire documentation[1], make sure to click on the two section headers to reveal content. While no doubt the document might mislead you about the extent of the delay, and really % done means nothing in these projects where the unknowns are unknown, you can clearly see it's the exact coordination issues I had mentioned earlier: utility coordination, handling expanding flyovers/roads, etc. > All are perpetually delayed Because, it's not an internal organisation issue or a personnel issue (i.e "hire more engineers"). The exact organisation does not matter when the problems are of the external kind mentioned above. Now, the problems mentioned in TFA don't occur here because the SPVs house long term employees with - for government standards - fairly robust institutional knowledge. The top comment now has content refuting the article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48582433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48582433 > Look at the memes for Pune metro line 3 and for Karnataka metro (forgot which line) The same memes exist everywhere: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48582563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48582563 > Even though private If you want real private efficiencies, you have to give the entire responsibility of many departments to the private company. So, a near-private whole sub-municipality. Just making the metro SPV private is meaningless, although definitely better than having it under PWD... [1] https://www.pmrda.gov.in/en/pune-metro-line-3/maan-hinjawadi-shivajinagar-metro-line/ https://www.pmrda.gov.in/en/pune-metro-line-3/maan-hinjawadi...

sieve 4mo ago

Depends on the state and the political environment. Some people will deliberately sabotage projects for political reasons. The biggest problem with metros in India is the inability to provide last mile connectivity. Some cities will run buses in competition to metro lines, or provide free bus travel to women. Both actions compete against a fast mode of travel. So, it is an India problem, not a government problem.

thewhitetulip 4mo ago
metro construction is delayed in every state ruling party or opposition Look at the memes for Pune metro line 3 and for Karnataka metro (forgot which line)