4 ms·

I understand it's supposed to be obvious to all of us, but maybe just for fun, can you follow through? What is the next step in the nefarious plan?

WarmWash 4mo ago
[flagged]
- riskd 4mo ago
  [flagged]
- stackbutterflow 4mo ago
  The present US administration and its backers don't want diversity, democracy and non-whites. Where does that leave non-Chinese and non-US citizens ?
  - WarmWash 4mo ago
    Waiting until the next election, mid-terms are in a few months.
- mft_ 4mo ago
  In your take, why are they producing and giving away such good local models? Mindshare? Promotion?
  - cwel 4mo ago
    Not who you are replying to, nor do I agree with their take (no sign of irony, complete lack of self awareness, and just blatantly xenophobic. not suprised by it either). but they did already address this: > it's called soft power, look at endless glazing, it works
  - WarmWash 4mo ago
    Soft power primarily (see my original comment),and less data for western labs to train on, less money for western labs to have. The state can use their AI as a tool to bolster their standing, which is working well. Chinese AI labs don't have to worry about making money or affording more compute. The state will (and does) give them whatever they need.
    - inigyou 4mo ago
      Oh no! A group of people doing useful and good things to increase their reputation! That's terrible! But seriously, if it works so well, why don't we do it too?
      - WarmWash 4mo ago
        Because the US is a democracy and there is blowback for pissing off the public. So allocating hundred of billions of taxpayer money to AI would be enormously unpopular. We have private markets that can spend their money however they chose. China just has the state with one leader than thats it.
        inigyou 4mo ago
        But the US did allocate hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to AI...
- lelanthran 4mo ago
  > They would be looking to do large scale espionage, whether it be corporate secrets or personal secrets. The US token providers started the ball rolling on large-scale copyright infringement in order to make their models work. They built their business on IP laundering, so it's very difficult for me to feel sorry for them now.
  - alienbaby 4mo ago
    Not sure I follow your point, are you confusing espionage with IP theft? The victims are entirely different in each case, I am sure china would not restrict itself to corporate espionage.
    - lelanthran 4mo ago
      > Not sure I follow your point, are you confusing espionage with IP theft? Espionage is IP theft. What did you think that word means?
      - alienbaby 4mo ago
        I may have got it a little mixed up with sabotage :/
- beepbooptheory 4mo ago
  The untold capital and effort, the disciplined, complex long game operation, all to get 10 million people a second asking "are there timezones in space?" or "excel bar chart colors?" or "do you think I'm beautiful?" It's hard to truly grasp the enormity of the evil, really.
- jfrbfbreudh 4mo ago
  They can do that without open sourcing their weights. In fact, that would be the best way to do it. So why are they open sourcing their weights?
  - wesselbindt 4mo ago
    To create goodwill! Nefariously!
    - shimman 4mo ago
      The US truly can't consider foreign policy that doesn't help propagate the military industrial complex. It's like the idea of diplomacy and collaboration are two words that do not exist.
- sanghoonio 4mo ago
  So people in countries adversarial to the US, or even demographics at risk domestically like illegal migrants have nothing to worry about dumping their info OpenAI or Anthropic servers? But the Chinese are going to spy on people using open weight models running on private or third party servers? Do you hear yourself? Do you have any grasp of theory of mind at all? Is your vision of Chinese "ethnonationalism" white people picking cotton? Is that what you are afraid of?
cedarseagull 4mo ago
Not OP, but IMO the Chinese are waging economic warfare by "commodifying the competition". US VC's and equity are massively invested in AI being very very profitable and as soon as it's not that becomes garbage debt on a balance sheet, and a lot of it. When money is invested it's expected to make a return. When a few people make bad investments they lose their bag, when many many people all make the same bad investment, you get a nasty recession. When the US goes into recession China is more emboldened to pursue their agenda because policy makers are distracted by shoring up support at home and not as interested in expanding their power abroad.
- sp527 4mo ago
  That sounds like a problem for the idiots invested in this garbage and who cut foolish sweetheart debt deals with the hyper-scalers. That's mostly rich people, because they haven't yet found a way to offload their bags onto retail (though they're certainly trying).
- mswphd 4mo ago
  I'm confused. China has been in a fairly bad recession the last ~2 years (their housing bubble popping). Why are we assuming that recessions can only happen in the US? I'm also confused how China managed to convince so many US VC's to spend an insane amount on a technology with "no moat". China exporting cheap AI hurts American hyperscalars. But it doesn't induce the behavior in American hyperscalars that causes them to be vulnerable to cheap AI. It seems kind of patronizing to point the finger at China, rather than acknowledge the American (potential) misallocation of resources.
  - WarmWash 4mo ago
    You're attacking the strawman of "China made VC's invest in AI". That didn't happen nor was it claimed. China is being opportunistic here.
- inigyou 4mo ago
  Free market economics is constant warfare. It's called competition, and if you're really doing free market economics, you don't get to shut down the market every time you're bad at it.

WarmWash 4mo ago

[flagged]

riskd 4mo ago
[flagged]
stackbutterflow 4mo ago
The present US administration and its backers don't want diversity, democracy and non-whites. Where does that leave non-Chinese and non-US citizens ?
- WarmWash 4mo ago
  Waiting until the next election, mid-terms are in a few months.
mft_ 4mo ago
In your take, why are they producing and giving away such good local models? Mindshare? Promotion?
- cwel 4mo ago
  Not who you are replying to, nor do I agree with their take (no sign of irony, complete lack of self awareness, and just blatantly xenophobic. not suprised by it either). but they did already address this: > it's called soft power, look at endless glazing, it works
- WarmWash 4mo ago
  Soft power primarily (see my original comment),and less data for western labs to train on, less money for western labs to have. The state can use their AI as a tool to bolster their standing, which is working well. Chinese AI labs don't have to worry about making money or affording more compute. The state will (and does) give them whatever they need.
  - inigyou 4mo ago
    Oh no! A group of people doing useful and good things to increase their reputation! That's terrible! But seriously, if it works so well, why don't we do it too?
    - WarmWash 4mo ago
      Because the US is a democracy and there is blowback for pissing off the public. So allocating hundred of billions of taxpayer money to AI would be enormously unpopular. We have private markets that can spend their money however they chose. China just has the state with one leader than thats it.
      - inigyou 4mo ago
        But the US did allocate hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to AI...
lelanthran 4mo ago
> They would be looking to do large scale espionage, whether it be corporate secrets or personal secrets. The US token providers started the ball rolling on large-scale copyright infringement in order to make their models work. They built their business on IP laundering, so it's very difficult for me to feel sorry for them now.
- alienbaby 4mo ago
  Not sure I follow your point, are you confusing espionage with IP theft? The victims are entirely different in each case, I am sure china would not restrict itself to corporate espionage.
  - lelanthran 4mo ago
    > Not sure I follow your point, are you confusing espionage with IP theft? Espionage is IP theft. What did you think that word means?
    - alienbaby 4mo ago
      I may have got it a little mixed up with sabotage :/
beepbooptheory 4mo ago
The untold capital and effort, the disciplined, complex long game operation, all to get 10 million people a second asking "are there timezones in space?" or "excel bar chart colors?" or "do you think I'm beautiful?" It's hard to truly grasp the enormity of the evil, really.
jfrbfbreudh 4mo ago
They can do that without open sourcing their weights. In fact, that would be the best way to do it. So why are they open sourcing their weights?
- wesselbindt 4mo ago
  To create goodwill! Nefariously!
  - shimman 4mo ago
    The US truly can't consider foreign policy that doesn't help propagate the military industrial complex. It's like the idea of diplomacy and collaboration are two words that do not exist.
sanghoonio 4mo ago
So people in countries adversarial to the US, or even demographics at risk domestically like illegal migrants have nothing to worry about dumping their info OpenAI or Anthropic servers? But the Chinese are going to spy on people using open weight models running on private or third party servers? Do you hear yourself? Do you have any grasp of theory of mind at all? Is your vision of Chinese "ethnonationalism" white people picking cotton? Is that what you are afraid of?

cedarseagull 4mo ago

Not OP, but IMO the Chinese are waging economic warfare by "commodifying the competition". US VC's and equity are massively invested in AI being very very profitable and as soon as it's not that becomes garbage debt on a balance sheet, and a lot of it. When money is invested it's expected to make a return. When a few people make bad investments they lose their bag, when many many people all make the same bad investment, you get a nasty recession. When the US goes into recession China is more emboldened to pursue their agenda because policy makers are distracted by shoring up support at home and not as interested in expanding their power abroad.

sp527 4mo ago
That sounds like a problem for the idiots invested in this garbage and who cut foolish sweetheart debt deals with the hyper-scalers. That's mostly rich people, because they haven't yet found a way to offload their bags onto retail (though they're certainly trying).
mswphd 4mo ago
I'm confused. China has been in a fairly bad recession the last ~2 years (their housing bubble popping). Why are we assuming that recessions can only happen in the US? I'm also confused how China managed to convince so many US VC's to spend an insane amount on a technology with "no moat". China exporting cheap AI hurts American hyperscalars. But it doesn't induce the behavior in American hyperscalars that causes them to be vulnerable to cheap AI. It seems kind of patronizing to point the finger at China, rather than acknowledge the American (potential) misallocation of resources.
- WarmWash 4mo ago
  You're attacking the strawman of "China made VC's invest in AI". That didn't happen nor was it claimed. China is being opportunistic here.
inigyou 4mo ago
Free market economics is constant warfare. It's called competition, and if you're really doing free market economics, you don't get to shut down the market every time you're bad at it.