8 ms·
GLM 5.2 Max = Opus 4.8 Max in thinking behavior. The thinking chain is so similar, and so is the amount of token usage on the output. If you want reasonable to
by benjiro29 4mo ago
GLM 5.2 Max = Opus 4.8 Max in thinking behavior. The thinking chain is so similar, and so is the amount of token usage on the output.
If you want reasonable token usage, you need to run it GLM 5.2 at High. There is little drop in quality from Max to High (for most tasks). And it cuts token usage by 2 a 2.5x. GLM 5.2, Max is really something you only need for complex tasks.
In essence, GLM 5.2 is Opus 4.8 its little brother, at a way, WAY cheaper price.
There has been really no training on Opus models going on, really, none i tell you! /sarcasm
- vitalyan123 4mo agodistillation of thinking models is not particularly effective - both "Open"AI and Misanthropic don't show you the real chain of thought, only its severely downscaled version. both do everything in their power to combat such outrageous copyright infringement, so the bulk of unethically scrapped data the Chinese have is from several generations ago.
- duskdozer 4mo ago>such outrageous copyright infringement Sarcasm, considering the source of their own training data?
- orphea 4mo agoNarrator: it was sarcasm, indeed.
- baron3dl 4mo agoIP for me, not thee.
- margalabargala 4mo agoConsidering they called the company "Misanthropic", sarcasm is a safe bet.
- duskdozer 4mo agoSomehow, I completely overlooked that.
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- mannanj 4mo agoThe companies that did copyright infringement and unethically scrapped data think that copyright infringement and unethically scrapping data is wrong and needs to be stopped. Though only in particular situations, like when it’s done to them and not when they do it. Cause they have the power and are morally right and know better than you. And if you question this at all, well you’re a threat to American values and a supporter of the Chinese and leading to the break down of Democracy. This isn’t a type of reasoning argument or manipulation tactic used by the rich throughout history to trick the naive and gullible masses or anything like that. Trust me, I’m rich and I’m morally right. /sarcasm
- brookst 4mo agoIt’s been amazing to see the arc of tech people going from “evil Disney, copyright is an abomination, information wants to be free” to “OMG copyright is inviolable and AI is taking money out of Plato’s descendants’ pockets!”
- solid_fuel 4mo ago> taking money out of Plato’s descendants’ pockets Yeah, remind me - is it Plato's descendants that people are concerned about here, or is it every single author who had any work in Anna's Archive, any work published online, any work published on github, etc? I think that people are probably upset about the harm to living people who had their work stolen by Meta and other LLM companies - regardless of license, terms of use, or any other attempted protection.
- brookst 4mo agoSure, that’s the motte / bailey. Easy to point to living, starving writers who suffer grevious harm, in defense of perpetual copyright. Disney and others use literally this exact argument year after year. I’m not even disagreeing. I’m just saying the shift in attitude about copyright in the tech space has been sudden, dramatic, and really funny. Remember “you wouldn’t steal a car”? Today’s anti-AI tech contingent are enthusiastically embracing that false equivalence that we all laughed at 20 years ago.
- ComputerGuru 4mo agoSupposedly there are “jailbreaks” that expose considerably more of the thinking traces.
- woctordho 4mo agoSimple trick: Use an agentic tool like Pi or OpenCode that allows you to switch models. First do some chats with DeepSeek or GLM who shows full thinking traces, then switch to Claude or GPT and it's more likely to show full thinking traces.
- overfeed 4mo agoFYI: model outputs are not protected by copyright.
- nyrikki 4mo agoIt is quite likely that the intermediate tokens don’t have ‘semantic import’[0] There are methods like Habitual Reasoning Distillation or Inverted Reasoning Traces [1] that can help. While there are reasons to hide the intermediate tokens from a IP protection stand point, there is also a need to hide more effective and efficient generating that doesn’t fit the R1 claims of an aha moment that has been debunked, but is a consumer expectation. While hidden intermediate tokens do increase the difficulty, it is not a from barrier in itself, especially as they are billed, given information about their length. [0] https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.09762v4 https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.09762v4 [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2603.07267 https://arxiv.org/abs/2603.07267
- Bolwin 4mo agoFor Claude models at least, you can tell to just manually think in the output and it works fine. I do it reguralrly because for creative writing and summarization, they seem to believe they don't need to think at all, and get way worse results.
- carterschonwald 4mo agothis helps so much. i do it too. with some of the newer frontier models its unclear if you can even turn it off in the first party chat apps. havent compared api semantics yet.
- mirekrusin 4mo agoI don’t understand why there isn’t public dataset for reasoning that can be improved by humans/llms like Wikipedia (ie with auto judging contributions etc).
- logicchains 4mo agoFor reasoning a manually-curated dataset is too small; you need to be able to automatically generate vast volumes of synthetic reasoning data with provably correct answers. That's presumably why Claude and GPT are so good at using Lean (the theorem prover), because they get fed a bunch of synthetic, verifiably correct training data.
- mirekrusin 4mo agoWikipedia is a lot of data as well but we manage to do it, no?
- woctordho 4mo agoThere is already a lot of effort to collect agent traces including reasonings, e.g. see the recent discussion: https://old.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1u795pb/donate_your_coding_sessions_to_an_open_ccby40/ https://old.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1u795pb/donate_... We've been developing DataClaw for this: https://github.com/peteromallet/dataclaw https://github.com/peteromallet/dataclaw
- mirekrusin 4mo agoDid I get it wrong or the first link has dataset with 30 entries only?
- orbital-decay 4mo agoYou can trivially leak the CoT of any current model, it's not a problem. >outrageous copyright infringement >unethically scrapped data Hahahahaha
- kmeisthax 4mo agoChinese distillation attacks are about as unethical as Robin Hood stealing from the rich to give to the poor. The real unethical scraping was done by Anthropic to train Claude. To be clear, if Anthropic was using totally licensed data, I'd be sympathetic to these claims. But if you're going to pirate the world's creativity you'd better be willing to gimme dat shit for free[0]. [0] As said by Hungry Santa.
- BoorishBears 4mo agoReasoning models can coaxed to reason like they do in dedicated reasoning blocks, outside of those blocks: in normal parts of the response. But Anthropic at least has openly admitted they try to detect that and interfere
- maxdo 4mo agolooking at the score this is rather a gemini 3.5 flash competitor, yes, for cheaper, but distance to opus and fable is as big as their price diff.
- FooBarWidget 4mo agoWith such ridiculously long thinking traces I'm surprised max outperforms high. After all, performance falls off a hill after a certain amount of context, and long thinking traces can fill that up really quickly.
- matheusmoreira 4mo ago> GLM 5.2 Max = Opus 4.8 Max in thinking behavior This is insane! I can't wait until technology progresses to the point we can run these things on consumer hardware!
- chartpath 4mo agoAre there any indications that this will be possible? Consumer hardware will continue getting better but I can't see 512GB RAM in a MacBook Pro any time soon. I'm hoping linear attention techniques plus MoE will make breakthroughs in size/compression and throughput.
- matheusmoreira 4mo agoCertainly not any time soon, but I have faith it'll happen one day.
- nijave 4mo agoWell, we're probably not going to be running frontier models anytime soon, but I think the general assumption is smaller models will continue to improve until they're sufficiently good frontier models aren't needed. There's potentially also augmentation through tools, harnesses and RAG to help boost how well they work without tons of parameters.
- deadbabe 4mo agoThere will be a 1024GB unified memory MacBook Pro.
- TranquilMarmot 4mo agoNot at a price that your average consumer can afford for a long, long time
- deleted 4mo ago[deleted]
- majormajor 4mo ago