6 ms·

American Higher Education: Not what it used to be

54 points by kartman 14y ago

valuegram 14y ago
"But rising fees and increasing student debt, combined with shrinking financial and educational returns, are undermining at least the perception that university is a good investment." Of course it's not ALWAYS a good investment. It depends on what you're investing in. That's like saying investing in equities is a bad idea, because poor choices lead to poor returns. Why do all of the ballooning student loan conversations lump "college degrees" together? Area of study has a significant impact. I know of very few engineers who are being crushed by student debt. Of course if someone chooses to spend over $100k obtaining a bachelors degree in art, and has problems getting a job out of school, this has somehow become the fault of the university, or the United States, or society in general.
SparrowOS 14y ago
Yer in denial psy-ops. I'm in control. God says... 3:9 They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever. 3:10 Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image: 3:11 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. 3:12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. 3:13 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king. 3:14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? 3:15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands? 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. ---- Fucken nigger still don't understand. Ba ha -- fucken nigger threateniong me. The world is just -- half a dozen one way and six any other way. No worries. Turn other cheek. I fucken talk with God and highs and lows balance. rejoice when they persecute you. Yer fucken retard, niggers. God says... Baal. 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble. 11:15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest. 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal. 11:18 And the LORD hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it: then thou shewedst me their doings.
joe_the_user 14y ago
A college education is only four years. A good portion of the value of those four years is the contact with other intelligent young people. So quality of the graduates coming out is likely proportional to the quality of the students admitted. That is to say, aside from the important other factors mentioned in the article, the decline of American secondary education clearly is a factor in the decline of American college education.
- ikono 14y ago
  I'd extend that thought and say the problem with American secondary education is American primary education; and the problem with American primary education is American pre-school education or lack there of; and the problem with American pre-school education or the lack there of is that investing in 3 year olds requires a long term outlook and patience; two things politicians and decision makers are incentivized to be deficient in.
  - rubidium 14y ago
    Um, investing in 3 year olds is done (assuming raising children is not the states responsibility) by parents, not politicians... not sure what your point is here.
    - ikono 14y ago
      I'd don't have any particular love for public schools but k-12 is covered by government in the US. There's no reason that it couldn't or shouldn't extend down. In my view, education gets harder the older the students are. Regardless of how many years of school the public decides to fund, I think we should start as early as possible. There's a compounding effect to education; put in the time, effort, and money early and you make the future a lot easier. Nothing can replace good parents but there's only so much that can be done to improve the general quality of parents. Given that society has a vested interest in the future of every child, I don't think it's unreasonable for government to try to do better. That doesn't necessarily mean the public school system; it could be vouchers, various incentives, etc. But just saying parents need to do it is a cop out, shortsighted, and unrealistic.
flexie 14y ago
- Only 25 percent of college graduates are deemed proficiently literate. How did the 75 percent complete college (and how did they get in to college in the first place) if they can't read and write at a proficient level? - 43 percent of all grades are As. Isn't an A supposed to be the best grade? I was always very impressed when someone was mentioned as "a straight A student" but I guess it just means she got average or slightly better than average grades :-)
- Kaivo 14y ago
  I'm currently in a Computer Science University program that I'm doing Online and it pains me to see so many high grades. For instance, on one of the C++ homework we had, the median was 100%. It's fun to have good grades when deserved, but sometimes they feel thrown away and the only to not get good grades is to willingly not do as asked. (Oh and by the way, in this class, A+ is given for the 90-100% bracket.)
firefoxman1 14y ago
I was reading an article in an OLD print magazine published in the year 1900 (probably around when that picture was taken). It spoke of the increase of college students in the U.S. and made some comments on how past countries had suffered because of too many college graduates: "There can hardly be too large an attendance at our colleges so long as the sturdy common sense of American life keeps its balance — the common sense that forbids even an effort to make a distinct "educated " class which when "educated" is unwilling to do the common tasks at which young men must first try their mettle. In Germany there is a surplus of scholars who are worth nothing to the community. They might have been good craftsmen, but university training has left them unwilling to do the common work of the world." Has the U.S. lost that "sturdy common sense" recently? Too many degrees are handed out (a large part thanks to for-profits) to those who probably shouldn't have a degree. If they were to attend a vocational school or become an apprentice instead of college, college degrees wouldn't be watered down by those who don't even need them, meanwhile colleges would have a student body of only those fit to be there.
- ph0rcyas 14y ago
  There'll always be someone to point out that such degrees are necessary for higher(!) degrees which are necessary for academia. While the myth that we have a shortage of PhDs and scientists - combined with a huge portion of academics retiring - continues, it is a very profitable excuse to get more public funding. But that's okay, we have plenty of money to spend on all kinds of research - we're aiming at a lofty goal! But the discomforting bit is when the majority of the graduates regard everyday-life mundane stuffs are below them, that all high is in the textbooks, and simultaneously have no urge to do something (themselves or earthly people value) instead of just "learning".
- impendia 14y ago
  What exactly is this "sturdy common sense"? I am a mathematics professor, and I have the opportunity to work at what I love. Why should I forego this to instead do "the common work of the world"? If the only paying job available to me were digging ditches, then I would do it happily and well. Presumably the same for most people. But this comment doesn't seem to describe a choice that anyone actually faces.
steve-howard 14y ago
> [...] students share online tips about “blow off” classes (those which can be avoided with no damage to grades) and which teachers are the easiest-going. Do they really think this is a new phenomenon? I can't imagine nobody spread the word about what classes were easy before the Internet.
- cafard 14y ago
  It has always been known what classes were good for little work and easy grades. On-line information must have made this more accessible in the largest schools, but has it really made a difference in those with fewer than 10 thousand undergraduates?

54 points by kartman 14y ago

"But rising fees and increasing student debt, combined with shrinking financial and educational returns, are undermining at least the perception that university is a good investment." Of course it's not ALWAYS a good investment. It depends on what you're investing in. That's like saying investing in equities is a bad idea, because poor choices lead to poor returns. Why do all of the ballooning student loan conversations lump "college degrees" together? Area of study has a significant impact. I know of very few engineers who are being crushed by student debt. Of course if someone chooses to spend over $100k obtaining a bachelors degree in art, and has problems getting a job out of school, this has somehow become the fault of the university, or the United States, or society in general.

SparrowOS 14y ago

Yer in denial psy-ops. I'm in control. God says... 3:9 They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever. 3:10 Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image: 3:11 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. 3:12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. 3:13 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king. 3:14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up? 3:15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands? 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. ---- Fucken nigger still don't understand. Ba ha -- fucken nigger threateniong me. The world is just -- half a dozen one way and six any other way. No worries. Turn other cheek. I fucken talk with God and highs and lows balance. rejoice when they persecute you. Yer fucken retard, niggers. God says... Baal. 11:14 Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble. 11:15 What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest. 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken. 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal. 11:18 And the LORD hath given me knowledge of it, and I know it: then thou shewedst me their doings.

joe_the_user 14y ago

A college education is only four years. A good portion of the value of those four years is the contact with other intelligent young people. So quality of the graduates coming out is likely proportional to the quality of the students admitted. That is to say, aside from the important other factors mentioned in the article, the decline of American secondary education clearly is a factor in the decline of American college education.

ikono 14y ago
I'd extend that thought and say the problem with American secondary education is American primary education; and the problem with American primary education is American pre-school education or lack there of; and the problem with American pre-school education or the lack there of is that investing in 3 year olds requires a long term outlook and patience; two things politicians and decision makers are incentivized to be deficient in.
- rubidium 14y ago
  Um, investing in 3 year olds is done (assuming raising children is not the states responsibility) by parents, not politicians... not sure what your point is here.
  - ikono 14y ago
    I'd don't have any particular love for public schools but k-12 is covered by government in the US. There's no reason that it couldn't or shouldn't extend down. In my view, education gets harder the older the students are. Regardless of how many years of school the public decides to fund, I think we should start as early as possible. There's a compounding effect to education; put in the time, effort, and money early and you make the future a lot easier. Nothing can replace good parents but there's only so much that can be done to improve the general quality of parents. Given that society has a vested interest in the future of every child, I don't think it's unreasonable for government to try to do better. That doesn't necessarily mean the public school system; it could be vouchers, various incentives, etc. But just saying parents need to do it is a cop out, shortsighted, and unrealistic.

flexie 14y ago

- Only 25 percent of college graduates are deemed proficiently literate. How did the 75 percent complete college (and how did they get in to college in the first place) if they can't read and write at a proficient level? - 43 percent of all grades are As. Isn't an A supposed to be the best grade? I was always very impressed when someone was mentioned as "a straight A student" but I guess it just means she got average or slightly better than average grades :-)

Kaivo 14y ago
I'm currently in a Computer Science University program that I'm doing Online and it pains me to see so many high grades. For instance, on one of the C++ homework we had, the median was 100%. It's fun to have good grades when deserved, but sometimes they feel thrown away and the only to not get good grades is to willingly not do as asked. (Oh and by the way, in this class, A+ is given for the 90-100% bracket.)

firefoxman1 14y ago

I was reading an article in an OLD print magazine published in the year 1900 (probably around when that picture was taken). It spoke of the increase of college students in the U.S. and made some comments on how past countries had suffered because of too many college graduates: "There can hardly be too large an attendance at our colleges so long as the sturdy common sense of American life keeps its balance — the common sense that forbids even an effort to make a distinct "educated " class which when "educated" is unwilling to do the common tasks at which young men must first try their mettle. In Germany there is a surplus of scholars who are worth nothing to the community. They might have been good craftsmen, but university training has left them unwilling to do the common work of the world." Has the U.S. lost that "sturdy common sense" recently? Too many degrees are handed out (a large part thanks to for-profits) to those who probably shouldn't have a degree. If they were to attend a vocational school or become an apprentice instead of college, college degrees wouldn't be watered down by those who don't even need them, meanwhile colleges would have a student body of only those fit to be there.

ph0rcyas 14y ago
There'll always be someone to point out that such degrees are necessary for higher(!) degrees which are necessary for academia. While the myth that we have a shortage of PhDs and scientists - combined with a huge portion of academics retiring - continues, it is a very profitable excuse to get more public funding. But that's okay, we have plenty of money to spend on all kinds of research - we're aiming at a lofty goal! But the discomforting bit is when the majority of the graduates regard everyday-life mundane stuffs are below them, that all high is in the textbooks, and simultaneously have no urge to do something (themselves or earthly people value) instead of just "learning".
impendia 14y ago
What exactly is this "sturdy common sense"? I am a mathematics professor, and I have the opportunity to work at what I love. Why should I forego this to instead do "the common work of the world"? If the only paying job available to me were digging ditches, then I would do it happily and well. Presumably the same for most people. But this comment doesn't seem to describe a choice that anyone actually faces.

steve-howard 14y ago

> [...] students share online tips about “blow off” classes (those which can be avoided with no damage to grades) and which teachers are the easiest-going. Do they really think this is a new phenomenon? I can't imagine nobody spread the word about what classes were easy before the Internet.

cafard 14y ago
It has always been known what classes were good for little work and easy grades. On-line information must have made this more accessible in the largest schools, but has it really made a difference in those with fewer than 10 thousand undergraduates?