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I took several biomechanics classes as electives back in my undergrad, and in one assignment I remember comparing the energy outputs between the human and robot

by eks391 3mo ago

I took several biomechanics classes as electives back in my undergrad, and in one assignment I remember comparing the energy outputs between the human and robot equivalents of different tasks, whether or not the robot was humanoid in how it was designed. The most impressive think that stuck with me is that humans are incredibly efficient, from an energy perspective, in anything we do, compared to machines. Every time we delegate a task to a machine, we are using several orders of magnitude of energy to do the same thing. For most tasks, it feels wrong, but it doesn't make me any more willing to give up my car. Maybe if I lived outside the US.

connicpu 3mo ago
If you live in most places in the US other than the urban heart of a few very large cities you have to take a huge hit to your ability to get places in a reasonable time frame without a car. I have hope some more cities other than NYC are improving the situation, but as it is the closest I got to using public transit for a commute was when I was going to one of our other offices in a different downtown area I would drive my car to the park n ride to take the train the rest of the way. The train saves time and sanity because traffic downtown is a nightmare, but that drive takes 5 minutes, and it would add 20+ minutes if I had to walk to the closest bus stop so I could take the bus up to the train station.
- zaat 3mo ago
  If you live in most cities in Italy you have to take a huge hit to your ability to get places (in a reasonable timeframe or at all) if you must do it with a car.
rahimnathwani 3mo ago
"Every time we delegate a task to a machine, we are using several orders of magnitude of energy to do the same thing." Might this just be selection bias? I mean, if humans can't do a task efficiently, we're not going to do the comparison with a machine. Some actions we do seem (to me) very inefficient when compared with machines. For example: grating carrots and brushing teeth.
- rirze 3mo ago
  There's a difference between consistency and efficiency. I read efficiency as "Energy inputted to accomplish a task", in which case, biological systems are far more efficient than current-day mechanical ones. It's a tradeoff.
- vitally3643 3mo ago
  No, it's evolution. Mammals burn a ridiculous amount of energy just existing, so evolutionary pressures tend toward more efficient muscles and body geometry. Electrochemical reactions in your muscles combined with the mechanical advantage from the geometry of your joints and ligaments is simply more energy efficient than most mechanical or electromechanical systems. On top of that, our learned and evolved kinematic algorithms result in vastly more efficient control. Humans tend to be pretty good at using only exactly as much energy as required for a given action. Overshoot is quite limited compared to robots. Your suggested actions seem inefficient, but if you look at the actual energy expenditure, mechanical means are much worse simply because mammalian muscle is so efficient.
layer8 3mo ago
Unfortunately, humans want houses and cars and vacations and such, which makes them very expensive. ;)
- eks391 3mo ago
  Yessir! I even used AI this week, so I'm adding to the energy death of the universe way faster than if I had done something else. Not to mention my car and other things...
  - pixl97 3mo ago
    These GenZ kids and their whole "Entropy is sin" thing.
pants2 3mo ago
If you're comparing raw calories to output, yes. Even gasoline has a caloric value, but humans can't drink gasoline. Growing and preparing food for human consumption uses a lot more energy than pumping and refining gasoline, so at the end of the day, human efficiency gains are not that impressive.
- arximboldi 3mo ago
  that's a misleading equivalence because you're also not considering the energy it took to grow the plants that produce that oil millennia ago. perhaps comparing to biodiesel or alike would be better. but even then it underestimates the efficiency of the human body, because food contains not only the energy we use, but also the materials to build the body itself. so you'd need to account for the inputs into that biodiesel and then all the extraction of materials and production of the machine itself. biology is amazing
  - pants2 3mo ago
    You also need to consider the energy released during the big bang as a prerequisite for creating that food and gasoline. The big bang released about 10^70 J of energy, roughly equivalent to eating 10^63 big macs
overfeed 3mo ago
> The most impressive think that stuck with me is that humans are incredibly efficient, from an energy perspective, in anything we do, compared to machines. Humans are efficient, but not across the board. Trivial counterexample: walking is incredibly energy inefficient vs a bicycle or other wheeled conveyances whose primary dissipater is rolling resistance.
- zaat 3mo ago
  That's a strange comparison. Wheels are incredibly limited in the type of surfaces they can be used on.
  - overfeed 3mo ago
    > That's a strange comparison It's not strange at all, I was responding to a specific, incorrect claim. I even quoted the wrong claim in my earlier comment , and I'll repeat it again, with added emphasis >>> humans are incredibly efficient, from an energy perspective, in anything we do, compared to machines I simply provided contrary evidence to a well-defined, falsifiable claim. How is that strange?
    - zaat 3mo ago
      Yes, but walking and moving on wheels is oranges and apples. It would be a relevant comparison if a robot with a movement mechanism based on two feet was more efficient than a human.
      - jason_oster 3mo ago
        I’ll admit, at first, I thought the human vs machine comparison was about humanoid machines. But that’s too narrowly defined to be a useful comparison. Most machines in use today are not humanoid. Then to boldly claim that humans are more efficient at anything compared to a machine, just does not follow.
      - antasvara 3mo ago
        The parent comment is quoted as: > in one assignment I remember comparing the energy outputs between the human and robot equivalents of different tasks, whether or not the robot was humanoid in how it was designed So I think the point in this context is relevant, even if it's apples to oranges.
oneshtein 3mo ago
> humans are incredibly efficient Humans cannot fly.
not_the_fda 3mo ago
The efficient mode of transportation is a human on a bicycle.
klaff 3mo ago
I have the opposite idea after reading physiology books. The number I remember was 22%, for efficiency of a human being as a motor, driving pedals to create mechanical power. That's quite poor compared to an electric motor. And unless you want your fuel to be high-fructose corn syrup, your fuel is inefficient to make as well.

by eks391 3mo ago

connicpu 3mo ago

If you live in most places in the US other than the urban heart of a few very large cities you have to take a huge hit to your ability to get places in a reasonable time frame without a car. I have hope some more cities other than NYC are improving the situation, but as it is the closest I got to using public transit for a commute was when I was going to one of our other offices in a different downtown area I would drive my car to the park n ride to take the train the rest of the way. The train saves time and sanity because traffic downtown is a nightmare, but that drive takes 5 minutes, and it would add 20+ minutes if I had to walk to the closest bus stop so I could take the bus up to the train station.

zaat 3mo ago
If you live in most cities in Italy you have to take a huge hit to your ability to get places (in a reasonable timeframe or at all) if you must do it with a car.

rahimnathwani 3mo ago

"Every time we delegate a task to a machine, we are using several orders of magnitude of energy to do the same thing." Might this just be selection bias? I mean, if humans can't do a task efficiently, we're not going to do the comparison with a machine. Some actions we do seem (to me) very inefficient when compared with machines. For example: grating carrots and brushing teeth.

rirze 3mo ago
There's a difference between consistency and efficiency. I read efficiency as "Energy inputted to accomplish a task", in which case, biological systems are far more efficient than current-day mechanical ones. It's a tradeoff.
vitally3643 3mo ago
No, it's evolution. Mammals burn a ridiculous amount of energy just existing, so evolutionary pressures tend toward more efficient muscles and body geometry. Electrochemical reactions in your muscles combined with the mechanical advantage from the geometry of your joints and ligaments is simply more energy efficient than most mechanical or electromechanical systems. On top of that, our learned and evolved kinematic algorithms result in vastly more efficient control. Humans tend to be pretty good at using only exactly as much energy as required for a given action. Overshoot is quite limited compared to robots. Your suggested actions seem inefficient, but if you look at the actual energy expenditure, mechanical means are much worse simply because mammalian muscle is so efficient.

layer8 3mo ago

Unfortunately, humans want houses and cars and vacations and such, which makes them very expensive. ;)

eks391 3mo ago
Yessir! I even used AI this week, so I'm adding to the energy death of the universe way faster than if I had done something else. Not to mention my car and other things...
- pixl97 3mo ago
  These GenZ kids and their whole "Entropy is sin" thing.

pants2 3mo ago

If you're comparing raw calories to output, yes. Even gasoline has a caloric value, but humans can't drink gasoline. Growing and preparing food for human consumption uses a lot more energy than pumping and refining gasoline, so at the end of the day, human efficiency gains are not that impressive.

arximboldi 3mo ago
that's a misleading equivalence because you're also not considering the energy it took to grow the plants that produce that oil millennia ago. perhaps comparing to biodiesel or alike would be better. but even then it underestimates the efficiency of the human body, because food contains not only the energy we use, but also the materials to build the body itself. so you'd need to account for the inputs into that biodiesel and then all the extraction of materials and production of the machine itself. biology is amazing
- pants2 3mo ago
  You also need to consider the energy released during the big bang as a prerequisite for creating that food and gasoline. The big bang released about 10^70 J of energy, roughly equivalent to eating 10^63 big macs

overfeed 3mo ago

> The most impressive think that stuck with me is that humans are incredibly efficient, from an energy perspective, in anything we do, compared to machines. Humans are efficient, but not across the board. Trivial counterexample: walking is incredibly energy inefficient vs a bicycle or other wheeled conveyances whose primary dissipater is rolling resistance.

zaat 3mo ago
That's a strange comparison. Wheels are incredibly limited in the type of surfaces they can be used on.
- overfeed 3mo ago
  > That's a strange comparison It's not strange at all, I was responding to a specific, incorrect claim. I even quoted the wrong claim in my earlier comment , and I'll repeat it again, with added emphasis >>> humans are incredibly efficient, from an energy perspective, in anything we do, compared to machines I simply provided contrary evidence to a well-defined, falsifiable claim. How is that strange?
  - zaat 3mo ago
    Yes, but walking and moving on wheels is oranges and apples. It would be a relevant comparison if a robot with a movement mechanism based on two feet was more efficient than a human.
    - jason_oster 3mo ago
      I’ll admit, at first, I thought the human vs machine comparison was about humanoid machines. But that’s too narrowly defined to be a useful comparison. Most machines in use today are not humanoid. Then to boldly claim that humans are more efficient at anything compared to a machine, just does not follow.
    - antasvara 3mo ago
      The parent comment is quoted as: > in one assignment I remember comparing the energy outputs between the human and robot equivalents of different tasks, whether or not the robot was humanoid in how it was designed So I think the point in this context is relevant, even if it's apples to oranges.

oneshtein 3mo ago

> humans are incredibly efficient Humans cannot fly.

not_the_fda 3mo ago

The efficient mode of transportation is a human on a bicycle.

klaff 3mo ago

I have the opposite idea after reading physiology books. The number I remember was 22%, for efficiency of a human being as a motor, driving pedals to create mechanical power. That's quite poor compared to an electric motor. And unless you want your fuel to be high-fructose corn syrup, your fuel is inefficient to make as well.