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> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entire
by JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe
The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.
- viking123 5mo ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> Western Europe will be a massive powder keg in 20 years Western Europe has been a powder keg for at least three millennia. The only thing keeping a cap on it recently was American hegemony. (EDIT: to be clear, American hegemony is waning. The powder keg is uncapped, and we’re one of the parties throwing in matches.)
- inigyou 5mo agoAmerica is who's propping up all the far right parties now. America wants a destable, fractured Europe. Russia too, but America has more funds.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> America is who's propping up all the far right parties now Oh, to be clear, yes.
- mrkeen 5mo agoWhile they're at it, they should kick out the French, the Germans, the Italians, and any other immigrants refusing to speak Swiss.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> refusing to speak Swiss I know this is tongue in cheek. But one of the hallmarks of a nation of immigrants is the enforced tolerance of speaking multiple national languages. Lots of people who only speak on throws off that balance.
- rdtsc 5mo ago> While they're at it, they should kick out the French, the Germans, the Italians, and any other immigrants refusing to speak Swiss. What's this Swiss language you speak of? I never heard of it. You must mean Romansh but that's only 0.5% of the population or so. You'd have to kick out 95.5% of the Swiss population too then?
- JumpCrisscross 5mo agoThat’s their point. Switzerland is a nation of immigrants. We don’t tend to be portrayed as such outside. And the SVP tends to forget this. (As does the GOP.)
- lovich 5mo agoAre you Swiss? I thought you were American from previous interactions.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> Are you Swiss? I thought you were American from previous interactions I’m more than one thing. (But only vote in two places.)
- rdtsc 5mo agoAh you're right. I did miss their sarcasm. Sometimes you can't tell online https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
- epolanski 5mo agoSo what? I despise such openly xenophobic posts. And Indian immigration tends to be the most educated and wealthy. It's also the wealthiest ethnic group in the US. By far. In any case, leaving Schengen for Switzerland would be de facto equivalent to Brexit, an economic disaster. Switzerland thrives by attracting highly qualified professionals for it's service and manufacturing industries and yes, also at the lower end where Swiss nationals aren't lining up to be plumbers, couriers or cleaning staff.
- viking123 5mo agoMaybe they prefer living amongst themselves than make number go to the moon. If these guys are such GDP rocket fuel and a solution, they can make their own country the best in the world. I visited few times and I like the country but I don't expect them to accept or cater to me.
- epolanski 5mo agoWho's they? > If these guys are such GDP rocket fuel and a solution, they can make their own country the best in the world. Not every country in the world gives the same opportunities, it's only natural many motivated individuals may try their chances elsewhere, I see nothing wrong with it. I'm an European and I have many grandparents and their relatives who emigrated to Argentina, US, Canada a century or so ago. My parents left communist Poland for Italy in the 70s. Many of my friends left Italy and now reside in the UK, Netherlands, Switzerland, Australia and some in the US too. Overly xenophobic anti immigration stances don't resonate with me at all. Immigration is a net benefit for humanity, it has had a huge impact on distributing human capital where it could best express it's talents. Like everything it has its cons and regulations are needed. But none of those should be rooted on open racism.
- geremiiah 5mo agoIDK about Argentina, but the US, Australia and Canada went through the whole cycle post WWII. At first they opened up their borders because they were in need of workers. However, at some point, due to various factors, including rising anti-immigration sentiments, they retightened their immigration policies again. This all happened pre-1990s. And all of those are immigration countries, unlike countries in Europe.
- greyhound 5mo agoGerman passport == German.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo agoTo be pedantic, what is and isn’t German qua German (versus Deutsch) is a bit of a shitshow [1] to the point that one could correctly argue that Germans pee se are more Frankish than Germanic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany
- stephbook 5mo agoIs this Berlin that decides anything and rolls it out contintent-wide with us in the room right now?
- inigyou 5mo agoBerlin is basically forcing the EU's hand regarding the Gaza war, so, yes?
- stephbook 5mo agoHow is that related to immigration? > Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly That's what I was responding to. Note the UK left the EU and accepted more immigrants than before. We didn't force them. Hungary and Poland never accepted Syrian immigrants either and they weren't forced to accept them iirc.
- SiempreViernes 5mo agoOnly in the same sense that Hungary was dictating Russia and Ukraine policy.
- lovich 5mo agoWas wondering how long this thread could go before someone made it about the omnicause.
- whstl 5mo ago
- FabCH 5mo agoImmigration is not devolved. The whole point of Schengen is the opposite of devolution of immigration. You are confusing immigration with naturalization. Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly Fair enough and great point. It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany. (Though still much harder than in America, at least based on my American friends who naturalized there and this Swiss of Indian and Germanic origin who naturalized in America.) It’s fair for those countries to want to maintain those differences.
- aranelsurion 5mo ago> It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany Is it? Asking out of curiosity, from a cursory look both countries require self-sufficiency, language (in fact Switzerland looks a little easier on this), no criminal background, an integration test to be taken (and both seem easy) and time in the country. Only major difference seems to me is Germany takes 5 years in paper (more like 6-7 in reality with bureaucracy) and Switzerland takes 10 years in paper.
- snowpid 5mo agoSwitzerland want less than B1? I find B1 barely can have a normal conversation.
- aranelsurion 5mo agoB1 speaking, A2 writing if my token predictor is correct. :) -- which is a little less than Germany (B1 both)
- kuerbel 5mo ago
- tonfa 5mo ago> The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme. You do realize German nationals (followed by French) are the top contingent in term of immigration to Swizerland. (Only EU citizens benefit from freedom of movement to settle in Switzerland)
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> You do realize German nationals (followed by French) are the top contingent in term of immigration to Swizerland Yes. I’m also conceding to the SVP the observation that a good fraction of said nationals are recently naturalized.
- tonfa 5mo agoIf the SVP says it, it must be true :) What's their sources? I'm sure they could find a couple of anecdotes, doesn't make it significant.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> What's their sources? Don’t know, don’t care. Mine are conversations in Zürich.
- includenotfound 5mo agoAssume it's true for the sake of argument. Do you think that would be an issue then?
- geremiiah 5mo agoTo me it seems like EU countries are independently embarking on the Canada-policy of importing a whole bunch of South East Asians and Latin Americans. From Hungary to Ireland, you see the same trend. Part of it is by economic necessity. For example finding nursing staff is very challenging and you have to compete with the US and Australia and other rich countries. But part of it doesn't make much sense. We really don't need to import any kind of engineers from outside of Europe when we have about 2,500 EU universities pumping out graduates each year.
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- andrewmutz 5mo agoWhen a person relocates to a country where their labor is more productive, a large amount of new economic value is created. Much of that value is captured by the migrant through higher earnings, but a lot also accrues to the people in the community they join. So an engineer joining a country that already has engineers still creates a ton of value in the destination country
- Avicebron 5mo agoAnd if they displace someone trying to join the engineering workforce say right out of school? What about housing?
- deleted 5mo ago[deleted]
- tadfisher 5mo agoLook up the "lump of labour fallacy". The jobs market is not a zero-sum thing.
- Avicebron 5mo agoThe timescale that the "lump of labour fallacy" operates on, as in the aggregate effects on employement, doesn't necessarily work for most people (individually). Therefore it isn't really a good metric at the scale required to alleviate the problems people are facing. "Eventually it will work out." Isn't proffering a solution.
- ProllyInfamous 5mo agoI think this somewhat federation causes problems similar (by design!) to those that the Federal System within the United States encourages. The "finger pointing" allows for status quo to carry on as usual, while the overlapping & glacial judicial systems legislate glacially from their antiquated benches... ---- Hopefully we can all take inspiration from the living memories of balkanization – smaller groups, hopefully with shared interests and common backgrounds, ought to be in charge of themselves; and themselves, only.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> we can all take inspiration from the living memories of balkanization Massive internal trade barriers and security so fragmented you’re at the whim of your larger neighbors?
- ProllyInfamous 5mo agoIt's a give/take. Even Israel & Spain have fenced borders (the latter on African continent)[i.e. it's not just USA "being racist"]. Every jurisdiction needs to limit immigration more (which EU's dispersed jurisdictions make impossible, by statute) before any one country can tackle any of their other lacks/disputes. The current EU setup is the inverse of USA's, where the feds technically regulate most immigration issues (instead of EU's individual memberstates having most power), but not all.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago> Even Israel & Spain have fenced borders Balkanisation refers to fences within one’s borders. It’s fragmentation that leads to less wealth, less security and eventually a loss of sovereignty to a powerful neighbor who notices.
- ProllyInfamous 5mo agoI understand and encourage the "breaking up" aspect. Smaller, more home-rule societies. Looking at it from the Slovene POV (which ultimately benefited from the dissolution of Yogoslavia, occurring within my/most lifetime), local industries/GDP benefitted greatly.
- vrganj 5mo ago[dead]