4 ms·
Maybe a personal analysis: It's a trend that is growing all over Europe. It's the equivalent of overtourism and a problem for the ruling parties (except the SVP
by abc03 3mo ago
Maybe a personal analysis: It's a trend that is growing all over Europe. It's the equivalent of overtourism and a problem for the ruling parties (except the SVP that proposed it). Expect it to continue quite soon in Switzerland and other European countries (France, Germany etc.). Of course it doesn't make sense to curb immigration at 10 Mio and many know it. It was also for many a vote against the ruling parties. Although Switzerland is an immigration country, Swiss don't think this way. It's more farmer/alpine style: Welcome guests but expect them to leave again. Many Swiss also don't interact with foreigners a lot, including myself (besides at work). Many of my friends don't want to give up their prosperity. They are fairly advanced in their career and it's more about enjoying life. So for many of them it's more a rational decision than really a belief we should have more immigration. As long as I can benefit, it's good. For younger people it may be different. My wife, who is not native Swiss, was in favor. And compared to other countries, I think Xenophobia is low.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> It's a trend that is growing all over Europe The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme.
- viking123 3mo ago[flagged]
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> Western Europe will be a massive powder keg in 20 years Western Europe has been a powder keg for at least three millennia. The only thing keeping a cap on it recently was American hegemony. (EDIT: to be clear, American hegemony is waning. The powder keg is uncapped, and we’re one of the parties throwing in matches.)
- inigyou 3mo agoAmerica is who's propping up all the far right parties now. America wants a destable, fractured Europe. Russia too, but America has more funds.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> America is who's propping up all the far right parties now Oh, to be clear, yes.
- mrkeen 3mo agoWhile they're at it, they should kick out the French, the Germans, the Italians, and any other immigrants refusing to speak Swiss.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> refusing to speak Swiss I know this is tongue in cheek. But one of the hallmarks of a nation of immigrants is the enforced tolerance of speaking multiple national languages. Lots of people who only speak on throws off that balance.
- rdtsc 3mo ago> While they're at it, they should kick out the French, the Germans, the Italians, and any other immigrants refusing to speak Swiss. What's this Swiss language you speak of? I never heard of it. You must mean Romansh but that's only 0.5% of the population or so. You'd have to kick out 95.5% of the Swiss population too then?
- JumpCrisscross 3mo agoThat’s their point. Switzerland is a nation of immigrants. We don’t tend to be portrayed as such outside. And the SVP tends to forget this. (As does the GOP.)
- lovich 3mo agoAre you Swiss? I thought you were American from previous interactions.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> Are you Swiss? I thought you were American from previous interactions I’m more than one thing. (But only vote in two places.)
- rdtsc 3mo agoAh you're right. I did miss their sarcasm. Sometimes you can't tell online https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
- epolanski 3mo agoSo what? I despise such openly xenophobic posts. And Indian immigration tends to be the most educated and wealthy. It's also the wealthiest ethnic group in the US. By far. In any case, leaving Schengen for Switzerland would be de facto equivalent to Brexit, an economic disaster. Switzerland thrives by attracting highly qualified professionals for it's service and manufacturing industries and yes, also at the lower end where Swiss nationals aren't lining up to be plumbers, couriers or cleaning staff.
- viking123 3mo agoMaybe they prefer living amongst themselves than make number go to the moon. If these guys are such GDP rocket fuel and a solution, they can make their own country the best in the world. I visited few times and I like the country but I don't expect them to accept or cater to me.
- epolanski 3mo agoWho's they? > If these guys are such GDP rocket fuel and a solution, they can make their own country the best in the world. Not every country in the world gives the same opportunities, it's only natural many motivated individuals may try their chances elsewhere, I see nothing wrong with it. I'm an European and I have many grandparents and their relatives who emigrated to Argentina, US, Canada a century or so ago. My parents left communist Poland for Italy in the 70s. Many of my friends left Italy and now reside in the UK, Netherlands, Switzerland, Australia and some in the US too. Overly xenophobic anti immigration stances don't resonate with me at all. Immigration is a net benefit for humanity, it has had a huge impact on distributing human capital where it could best express it's talents. Like everything it has its cons and regulations are needed. But none of those should be rooted on open racism.
- geremiiah 3mo agoIDK about Argentina, but the US, Australia and Canada went through the whole cycle post WWII. At first they opened up their borders because they were in need of workers. However, at some point, due to various factors, including rising anti-immigration sentiments, they retightened their immigration policies again. This all happened pre-1990s. And all of those are immigration countries, unlike countries in Europe.
- greyhound 3mo agoGerman passport == German.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo agoTo be pedantic, what is and isn’t German qua German (versus Deutsch) is a bit of a shitshow [1] to the point that one could correctly argue that Germans pee se are more Frankish than Germanic. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Germany
- stephbook 3mo agoIs this Berlin that decides anything and rolls it out contintent-wide with us in the room right now?
- inigyou 3mo agoBerlin is basically forcing the EU's hand regarding the Gaza war, so, yes?
- stephbook 3mo agoHow is that related to immigration? > Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly That's what I was responding to. Note the UK left the EU and accepted more immigrants than before. We didn't force them. Hungary and Poland never accepted Syrian immigrants either and they weren't forced to accept them iirc.
- SiempreViernes 3mo agoOnly in the same sense that Hungary was dictating Russia and Ukraine policy.
- lovich 3mo agoWas wondering how long this thread could go before someone made it about the omnicause.
- whstl 3mo ago
- FabCH 3mo agoImmigration is not devolved. The whole point of Schengen is the opposite of devolution of immigration. You are confusing immigration with naturalization. Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> Only if Berlin starts handing out German passports do they dictate EU immigration single-handedly Fair enough and great point. It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany. (Though still much harder than in America, at least based on my American friends who naturalized there and this Swiss of Indian and Germanic origin who naturalized in America.) It’s fair for those countries to want to maintain those differences.
- aranelsurion 3mo ago> It’s incredibly hard to naturalize in Switzerland. Less so in Germany Is it? Asking out of curiosity, from a cursory look both countries require self-sufficiency, language (in fact Switzerland looks a little easier on this), no criminal background, an integration test to be taken (and both seem easy) and time in the country. Only major difference seems to me is Germany takes 5 years in paper (more like 6-7 in reality with bureaucracy) and Switzerland takes 10 years in paper.
- snowpid 3mo agoSwitzerland want less than B1? I find B1 barely can have a normal conversation.
- aranelsurion 3mo agoB1 speaking, A2 writing if my token predictor is correct. :) -- which is a little less than Germany (B1 both)
- kuerbel 3mo ago
- tonfa 3mo ago> The current system permitting freedom of movement across the continent while devolving immigration policy entirely to members creates a fundamental tension the EU needs to resolve. Because otherwise, Berlin can basically dictate EU immigration single handedly, which is bound to generate backlash even if they run a perfect programme. You do realize German nationals (followed by French) are the top contingent in term of immigration to Swizerland. (Only EU citizens benefit from freedom of movement to settle in Switzerland)
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> You do realize German nationals (followed by French) are the top contingent in term of immigration to Swizerland Yes. I’m also conceding to the SVP the observation that a good fraction of said nationals are recently naturalized.
- tonfa 3mo agoIf the SVP says it, it must be true :) What's their sources? I'm sure they could find a couple of anecdotes, doesn't make it significant.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> What's their sources? Don’t know, don’t care. Mine are conversations in Zürich.
- includenotfound 3mo agoAssume it's true for the sake of argument. Do you think that would be an issue then?
- geremiiah 3mo agoTo me it seems like EU countries are independently embarking on the Canada-policy of importing a whole bunch of South East Asians and Latin Americans. From Hungary to Ireland, you see the same trend. Part of it is by economic necessity. For example finding nursing staff is very challenging and you have to compete with the US and Australia and other rich countries. But part of it doesn't make much sense. We really don't need to import any kind of engineers from outside of Europe when we have about 2,500 EU universities pumping out graduates each year.
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- andrewmutz 3mo agoWhen a person relocates to a country where their labor is more productive, a large amount of new economic value is created. Much of that value is captured by the migrant through higher earnings, but a lot also accrues to the people in the community they join. So an engineer joining a country that already has engineers still creates a ton of value in the destination country
- Avicebron 3mo agoAnd if they displace someone trying to join the engineering workforce say right out of school? What about housing?
- deleted 3mo ago[deleted]
- tadfisher 3mo agoLook up the "lump of labour fallacy". The jobs market is not a zero-sum thing.
- Avicebron 3mo agoThe timescale that the "lump of labour fallacy" operates on, as in the aggregate effects on employement, doesn't necessarily work for most people (individually). Therefore it isn't really a good metric at the scale required to alleviate the problems people are facing. "Eventually it will work out." Isn't proffering a solution.
- ProllyInfamous 3mo agoI think this somewhat federation causes problems similar (by design!) to those that the Federal System within the United States encourages. The "finger pointing" allows for status quo to carry on as usual, while the overlapping & glacial judicial systems legislate glacially from their antiquated benches... ---- Hopefully we can all take inspiration from the living memories of balkanization – smaller groups, hopefully with shared interests and common backgrounds, ought to be in charge of themselves; and themselves, only.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> we can all take inspiration from the living memories of balkanization Massive internal trade barriers and security so fragmented you’re at the whim of your larger neighbors?
- ProllyInfamous 3mo agoIt's a give/take. Even Israel & Spain have fenced borders (the latter on African continent)[i.e. it's not just USA "being racist"]. Every jurisdiction needs to limit immigration more (which EU's dispersed jurisdictions make impossible, by statute) before any one country can tackle any of their other lacks/disputes. The current EU setup is the inverse of USA's, where the feds technically regulate most immigration issues (instead of EU's individual memberstates having most power), but not all.
- JumpCrisscross 3mo ago> Even Israel & Spain have fenced borders Balkanisation refers to fences within one’s borders. It’s fragmentation that leads to less wealth, less security and eventually a loss of sovereignty to a powerful neighbor who notices.
- ProllyInfamous 3mo agoI understand and encourage the "breaking up" aspect. Smaller, more home-rule societies. Looking at it from the Slovene POV (which ultimately benefited from the dissolution of Yogoslavia, occurring within my/most lifetime), local industries/GDP benefitted greatly.
- vrganj 3mo ago[dead]
- Avicebron 3mo agoHow are the job prospects and housing prices? Switzerland is beautiful and I would gladly move there for six or so equivalent figures..
- FabCH 3mo agoIf you are non-EU, you will not get a work permit. If you are EU or do get a work permit, you will not get housing. The vote was for a reason…
- Arodex 3mo agoYou can get housing, you have to trade money for time and commute with the (frequent and reliable) public transportation. Meanwhile the parlement and the anti+immigration far-right vote all the time to increase landlord rights and margins. Most of them are landlords, of course...
- FabCH 3mo agoI mean, Kt. ZH also had the Wohnungsinitiative today, because not even Swiss people can find housing in ZH anymore. Let’s be realistic and admit that landlords already prioritize someone with history of renting in the country and it’s pretty fair to say that new immigrants will struggle to get housing. Even if you come on a FAANG salary, you will not be able to buy your way in that easily.
- brainwad 3mo ago> Even if you come on a FAANG salary, you will not be able to buy your way in that easily. Americans at Google Zürich do it all the time.
- hiq 3mo agoBoth of these are wrong. Non-EU means it's harder to get a permit, especially without working experience, but it's not impossible either. Housing is difficult in cities like Zurich but calling it impossible is stretching it, especially if one is fine with a longer commute.
- viking123 3mo ago[flagged]
- inigyou 3mo agoDoes Switzerland hate Indians or something?
- theodric 3mo agoWithout revealing too much...I hired one when I worked in a senior role at a major financial institution, and apparently some (older Swiss) people in the team called him "curry person" to his face and told him he wasn't really [demonym for his naturalized European nationality]. So that was cool and nice.
- inigyou 3mo agoWhat's wrong with curry? Curry is great.
- Arodex 3mo agoPure bullshit. Even the Swiss tabloid don't invent "rumours" as ludicrous as your anti-indian lie.
- epolanski 3mo agoThe amount of xenophobia, generally coming from very non-native, non-Cherokee or very non-Apache American individuals is absurd. _Immigration is only cool as long as it's my favourite ethnic groups_ state of mind.
- 1659447091 3mo ago> The amount of xenophobia, generally coming from very non-native, non-Cherokee or very non-Apache American individuals is absurd. You may want to clear or reset your AI chat context. Your earlier reply about its not "Crazy Horse or Geronimo sitting in the white house" Really did a number on its output regarding Indians here -- its not the Cherokee that some swiss worry about over-immigrating to their country.
- plufz 3mo agoCan you explain why you think xenophobia is low? My experience as a swed is that xenophobia and trying to avoid immigration often go hand in hand. You do not have a large Swiss right populist semi racist party like most other European countries have?
- abc03 3mo agoIn my experience, Swiss don't like criminals, unemployed people and people showing openly their religion. They negatively associate certain nationalities with stereotypes (e.g. Albanians, Maroccans etc.). If you are a representative of these groups, yes, it will be a problem. Violence towards foreigners is, compared to other countries, does not exist. Also with other nationalities, it is very different. Some people don't like Germans (that's also historically of course). However, with Germans near the boder it is often not a problem because they are more similar (and know how Swiss behave). With people from Berlin, many Swiss have not much in common. My wife is visible not Swiss and she never encountered raciscm (quite the contrary, she gets more free products at local stores than me because people recognize her). She also likes to buy tomatoes only from Switzerland. It is all how you behave in my experience. To the SVP, it is quite a different between the party and representative that are in the government. They are considered moderate due to the political system in Switzerland.
- tribaal 3mo agoThe SVP is not considered "moderate". They are a far-right party. The fact that they are wide spread and gather a lot of votes does not make them "moderate". Source: am Swiss
- brainwad 3mo agoWell, they are "moderate" in that they are in the Bundesrat, unlike a real fringe party like EDU or FPS (or PdA on the left).
- persedes 3mo agoAs an anecdote re Germans: A friend of mine did an Auslandssemester there and was surprised to see "No Germans" signs for some of the housing options. Always makes me chuckle as an example how "relative" xenophobia is.
- LaurensBER 3mo ago> And compared to other countries, I think Xenophobia is low I would agree and also suggest that initiatives like this play a large role in doing so. While there's a lot of bullshit arguments coming from the "yes" camp they do make some reasonable points and it's important that we discuss them to show what the trade-offs are. I cannot speak for all Swiss but knowing that it was a democratic decision to continue with some, high skilled, immigration makes it far easier to accept than if some government employee in Bern would've made that decision single handed.
- seydor 3mo agoWe ve been hearing that the trend is growing for decades now but it's failed to achieve anything via popular support. If anything there is anti-immigrant fatigue and indifference. It did provide, however a convenient scarecrow that helped to hide under the rug the mountain of bad policies that are rendering european countries irrelevant economic backwaters.