5 ms·

We pay those taxes because not having the services and societal stability those taxes pay for also sucks a lot of life out.

groundzeros2015 5mo ago
I think that’s their justification in the abstract, not the justification for most individual tax items.
- ceejayoz 5mo ago
  I don't have to inspect every grain of rice with a magnifying glass to enjoy the overall dish.
  - groundzeros2015 5mo ago
    Are you arguing that we should have bad taxes because some taxes are good?
    - ceejayoz 5mo ago
      Yes, absolutely. There's a cost to perfection. In our computing world, every extra nine of reliability is more expensive than the last, often with diminishing returns. See also: Florida drug testing welfare recipients cost more than it saved. https://www.aclu.org/news/smart-justice/just-we-suspected-florida-saved-nothing-drug-testing-welfare https://www.aclu.org/news/smart-justice/just-we-suspected-fl...
      - groundzeros2015 5mo ago
        You’re arguing that the cost to find bad taxes is not worth the savings. That’s not the same thing. If I’ve already found with a poor justification or better yet, someone is proposing a new one. Shouldn’t we remove it?
        ceejayoz 5mo ago
        I mean, I'd also argue that the definition of a "bad tax" is notoriously difficult to agree on. For example: https://x.com/NEWSMAX/status/1937470443168182386 https://x.com/NEWSMAX/status/1937470443168182386 > A government agency spending $300 million in taxpayer dollars to produce sterilized flies sounds like a dream scenario for a DOGE team looking to cut waste, fraud, and abuse. A year later: https://www.cnn.com/2026/06/09/business/what-consumers-should-know-about-screwworm https://www.cnn.com/2026/06/09/business/what-consumers-shoul... > Grocery shoppers could get hit with higher prices if the screwworm cases turn into a full-blown outbreak. That could cost $3 billion across the Southwest, according to a report by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas. Good tax, or bad tax? Returning to your question, though: Yes, I assert the cost of troubleshooting a "bad tax" may exceed the benefits of having addressed it.
        groundzeros2015 5mo ago
        You’re weasling. We don’t have to treat taxes as a pool we can look at the pros and cons of each one. Taxes are not benevolent and good by nature. You seem to be suggesting here it’s impossible or too costly to weigh pros or cons. So I would not consider you for an administrative position
        ceejayoz 5mo ago
        You're avoiding the points. "Look at the pros and cons of each one" is an enormous handwave; I've provided very clear evidence of our inability to do that successfully in a very topical and concrete case.
        groundzeros2015 5mo ago
        > You seem to be suggesting here it’s impossible or too costly to weigh pros or cons. Sounds like you agree.
        ceejayoz 5mo ago
DrProtic 5mo ago
But the amount of tax we pay is because of inefficient, corrupt and incompetent government.
- ceejayoz 5mo ago
  We have the current inefficient, corrupt, and incompetent government in the US because the anti-tax wealthy class threw an all-out tantrum over even the idea of paying a tiny bit more tax.
  - inigyou 5mo ago
    We have an inefficient, corrupt and incompetent government in the US because we voted for it. And we keep voting for it. That's our revealed preference. We obviously like inefficient, corrupt, incompetent governments.
  - selfmodruntime 5mo ago
    I live in Germany and I pay almost 50% of my income in income tax and social tax. There is always "just that tiny bit more tax" that will magically fix the system (it won't). Turns out paying more money to an already corrupt government doesn't turn it less corrupt. Go figure, hm?
    - ceejayoz 5mo ago
      > I live in Germany and I pay almost 50% of my income in income tax and social tax. I live in the US and pay less raw tax than that, for sure. But I reported $49k in medical expenses (premiums, deductible, copays, stuff they won't cover) last year on my taxes, and I've got two kids going to college in a year, which may cost $10-40k/year for each. I'd rather your trade-off.
      - hparadiz 5mo ago
        You forget that the college expense is temporary while the taxes are forever. And Germany still makes you get private insurance for medical. A single year of taxes in Germany based on my current American income would pay for all of that you just said. So then my question for you is. What were you doing with your money in those other years? I hope it was saving it. Because otherwise I'm gonna eye roll hard at you wanting to increase taxes on everyone just to get a small cut in how much you pay during one fiscal year. Seems silly.
IncreasePosts 5mo ago
You can still collect taxes without taxing people who have already been taxed in the form of needing to exchange a large fraction of their life for the wage.
- ceejayoz 5mo ago
  I'm entirely onboard with reducing tax on low/mid income folks currently "exchanging a large fraction of their life for the small wage" in favor of increased taxes on the billionaire class, yes.
  - WalterBright 5mo ago
    We already have the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).
    - ceejayoz 5mo ago
      We already have all sorts of things that I like. We seem to be making most of the changes in favor of the already very well-off, instead of, say, expanding the EITC. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1960-_Tax_rates_of_richest_versus_low_income_people_-_US.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1960-_Tax_rates_of_r...
    - IncreasePosts 5mo ago
      That covers maybe the bottom 30% of households, and realistically only if they have kids.
- MagicMoonlight 5mo ago
  [dead]
geysersam 5mo ago
To add to that: There are also "compounding effects" from investments made by tax money, just as for any other investments, the difference is that the compounding gains are collectively owned and not controlled by an individual.
inigyou 5mo ago
In a healthy society that's the case. In an unhealthy one, who knows.
vixen99 5mo ago
There again you might pay a lot of taxes and not get the services and have questionable societal stability. Ask some Brits about that.

groundzeros2015 5mo ago

I think that’s their justification in the abstract, not the justification for most individual tax items.

ceejayoz 5mo ago
I don't have to inspect every grain of rice with a magnifying glass to enjoy the overall dish.
- groundzeros2015 5mo ago
  Are you arguing that we should have bad taxes because some taxes are good?
  - ceejayoz 5mo ago
    Yes, absolutely. There's a cost to perfection. In our computing world, every extra nine of reliability is more expensive than the last, often with diminishing returns. See also: Florida drug testing welfare recipients cost more than it saved. https://www.aclu.org/news/smart-justice/just-we-suspected-florida-saved-nothing-drug-testing-welfare https://www.aclu.org/news/smart-justice/just-we-suspected-fl...
    - groundzeros2015 5mo ago
      You’re arguing that the cost to find bad taxes is not worth the savings. That’s not the same thing. If I’ve already found with a poor justification or better yet, someone is proposing a new one. Shouldn’t we remove it?
      - ceejayoz 5mo ago
        I mean, I'd also argue that the definition of a "bad tax" is notoriously difficult to agree on. For example: https://x.com/NEWSMAX/status/1937470443168182386 https://x.com/NEWSMAX/status/1937470443168182386 > A government agency spending $300 million in taxpayer dollars to produce sterilized flies sounds like a dream scenario for a DOGE team looking to cut waste, fraud, and abuse. A year later: https://www.cnn.com/2026/06/09/business/what-consumers-should-know-about-screwworm https://www.cnn.com/2026/06/09/business/what-consumers-shoul... > Grocery shoppers could get hit with higher prices if the screwworm cases turn into a full-blown outbreak. That could cost $3 billion across the Southwest, according to a report by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas. Good tax, or bad tax? Returning to your question, though: Yes, I assert the cost of troubleshooting a "bad tax" may exceed the benefits of having addressed it.
        groundzeros2015 5mo ago
        You’re weasling. We don’t have to treat taxes as a pool we can look at the pros and cons of each one. Taxes are not benevolent and good by nature. You seem to be suggesting here it’s impossible or too costly to weigh pros or cons. So I would not consider you for an administrative position
        ceejayoz 5mo ago
        You're avoiding the points. "Look at the pros and cons of each one" is an enormous handwave; I've provided very clear evidence of our inability to do that successfully in a very topical and concrete case.
        groundzeros2015 5mo ago
        > You seem to be suggesting here it’s impossible or too costly to weigh pros or cons. Sounds like you agree.
        ceejayoz 5mo ago

DrProtic 5mo ago

But the amount of tax we pay is because of inefficient, corrupt and incompetent government.

ceejayoz 5mo ago
We have the current inefficient, corrupt, and incompetent government in the US because the anti-tax wealthy class threw an all-out tantrum over even the idea of paying a tiny bit more tax.
- inigyou 5mo ago
  We have an inefficient, corrupt and incompetent government in the US because we voted for it. And we keep voting for it. That's our revealed preference. We obviously like inefficient, corrupt, incompetent governments.
- selfmodruntime 5mo ago
  I live in Germany and I pay almost 50% of my income in income tax and social tax. There is always "just that tiny bit more tax" that will magically fix the system (it won't). Turns out paying more money to an already corrupt government doesn't turn it less corrupt. Go figure, hm?
  - ceejayoz 5mo ago
    > I live in Germany and I pay almost 50% of my income in income tax and social tax. I live in the US and pay less raw tax than that, for sure. But I reported $49k in medical expenses (premiums, deductible, copays, stuff they won't cover) last year on my taxes, and I've got two kids going to college in a year, which may cost $10-40k/year for each. I'd rather your trade-off.
    - hparadiz 5mo ago
      You forget that the college expense is temporary while the taxes are forever. And Germany still makes you get private insurance for medical. A single year of taxes in Germany based on my current American income would pay for all of that you just said. So then my question for you is. What were you doing with your money in those other years? I hope it was saving it. Because otherwise I'm gonna eye roll hard at you wanting to increase taxes on everyone just to get a small cut in how much you pay during one fiscal year. Seems silly.

IncreasePosts 5mo ago

You can still collect taxes without taxing people who have already been taxed in the form of needing to exchange a large fraction of their life for the wage.

ceejayoz 5mo ago
I'm entirely onboard with reducing tax on low/mid income folks currently "exchanging a large fraction of their life for the small wage" in favor of increased taxes on the billionaire class, yes.
- WalterBright 5mo ago
  We already have the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC).
  - ceejayoz 5mo ago
    We already have all sorts of things that I like. We seem to be making most of the changes in favor of the already very well-off, instead of, say, expanding the EITC. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1960-_Tax_rates_of_richest_versus_low_income_people_-_US.svg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1960-_Tax_rates_of_r...
  - IncreasePosts 5mo ago
    That covers maybe the bottom 30% of households, and realistically only if they have kids.
MagicMoonlight 5mo ago
[dead]

geysersam 5mo ago

To add to that: There are also "compounding effects" from investments made by tax money, just as for any other investments, the difference is that the compounding gains are collectively owned and not controlled by an individual.

inigyou 5mo ago

In a healthy society that's the case. In an unhealthy one, who knows.

vixen99 5mo ago

There again you might pay a lot of taxes and not get the services and have questionable societal stability. Ask some Brits about that.