8 ms·

Trial of 12mph bike lane speed limit grinds gears of Dutch cyclists

31 points by defrost 5mo ago

huhkerrf 5mo ago
> “This is all about cyclists on motorised bicycles, so I should think you would do something about motorised cyclists. Make a rule for them and not for all cyclists.” There's a certain sub strain of cyclists that want absolutely no rules for them. In a just world, cyclists would have more freedom than cars, but pedestrians would have most of all. But walking through European cities with large cycling cultures can be dangerous, too, especially for children and the elderly. Too often, cyclists will completely ignore stop signs and stop lights, or go at full speed on the sidewalks. And because I know someone is going to retort that car drivers break traffic laws, too: drivers acting dangerously shouldn't excuse cyclists.
- globular-toast 5mo ago
  I don't like to think of it in terms of freedom. Everyone has the same freedom to use public highways. The difference is responsibility. If you decide to use a bicycle you have a bit more responsibility than if you walk because they can go faster. If you decide to use a motor vehicle then it should come with a huge amount of extra responsibility. Ultimately you have the added responsibility of ensuring the safety and freedoms of those more vulnerable road users. So it's not "less freedom", it's "greater responsibility".
  - graemep 5mo ago
    The problem is that there are effective mechanisms for punishing irresponsible drivers (and motor cyclists), but none (at least here in the UK) for punishing irresponsible cyclists. The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians. I see cyclists on the pavement all the time (mostly illegally - and without consequences), I never see a car driving on the pavement (some park on the pavement, which is annoying).
    - apothegm 5mo ago
      > The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians The solution to this is better cycling infrastructure to separate them, not making cycling less useful by setting ridiculously low speed limits.
      - graemep 5mo ago
        Proper separate infrastructure (i.e. not just painting a dividing line on the pavement as happens around here) is expensive and requires a lot of space. It is not always practicable, and even where it is the money would often be better spend elsewhere - e.g. on public transport.
- aix1 5mo ago
  What that woman you quoted said definitely resonates with me. I cycle a lot and the rise of e-bikes has definitely made my experience worse. Those bikes are capable of inficting a lot more damage yet I find that the average skill level of e-bike riders tends to be lower than that of the general cycling population. IMO not a great combination.
  - huhkerrf 5mo ago
    Sure, but just like with cars, e-bikes being more dangerous doesn't mean cyclists also don't need to have rules to follow.
aix1 5mo ago
I find it mind blowing that ~42% of all cycling deaths are men aged 70+. It obviously confounds fragility with participation but, still, it must mean that people continue to use bikes -- I'm guessing increasingly e-bikes -- well into their old age. (42% is 118/281 in the report.)
- fjfaase 5mo ago
  I think that if you as 60+ person cannot bike without support your brain is probably also not fit enough anymore for the speed you are going to ride at. So, I advice older people not to use an e-bike. I am not going to use one. Maybe a trike is a safe option at speeds not exceeding 10km/h.
- rcxdude 5mo ago
  I wonder how many of those are just heart attacks triggered by the exertion. A member of my family died that way (though they were not that old, and were relatively fit)
  - warmedcookie 5mo ago
    Another N=1 here, a family friend in their late 60s died of a heart attack while biking.
paddim8 5mo ago
20 km/h is nothing. On a bike lane you should be allowed to go normal biking speed
- raphman 5mo ago
  As the article says: this is not a general speed limit but an experimental speed limit for an apparently very crowded area where many kids cycle to school. As someone whose 'normal biking speed' ist typically 30+ km/h on suitable bike lanes, I have no problems with speed limits at critical choke points.
  - apothegm 5mo ago
    Ah, this bit of crucial context seems to be missing from the entire rest of the discussion. Also makes what otherwise sounds like an uncharacteristically bike-hostile move actually seem fairly reasonable. Tho tbf one still hopes that they come up with an infrastructure solution that makes it unnecessary in the long run.
    - raphman 5mo ago
      I'm not sure whether the Guardian article mentioned this or another one I read: the road segment in question seems to be in the old town which makes it difficult to find an architectural solution.
- fjfaase 5mo ago
  In the Netherlands we do not bike for sport but for daily commutes and shopping. Most people on non e-bikes go at about 15km/h.
globular-toast 5mo ago
12mph seems very slow, but I suppose you can still cycle in the carriageway if you're a decent cyclist? Really we need to ban motorised vehicles that go above 12mph. They are not bicycles and should not be in cycleways. I feel there is a big difference between someone who is able to pedal at higher speeds and someone who is just using a motor vehicle.
- ricardobeat 5mo ago
  Cycling on the road is only allowed where there are no bike lanes, which is very rare.
  - globular-toast 5mo ago
    That's insane then. 12mph is barely faster than running speed. The world record marathon speed is faster than that!
orbital-decay 5mo ago
>Amsterdam and Enschede are banning wide-tyre fat bikes from some central locations or parks What's the reason? Ordinary fatbikes aren't fast, and e-bikes are fast in any case.
- 4gotunameagain 5mo ago
  The reason is that the fat bikes are widely popular with young delinquents, typically of the immigrant kind. They have the absolute worst reputation around Amsterdam.
  - reacharavindh 5mo ago
    You could’ve said what you said except the “immigrant kind” bit. I see enough Dutch assholes on fat bikes just as well. No need to be xenophobic here.
    - junglistguy 5mo ago
      [dead]
    - pineaux 5mo ago
      Nah, its almost for sure xenophobic and classist. I think fat bikes are the best thing that happened to amsterdam because all the scooters disappeared. All the poor people that used to ride scooters are now riding fat bikes. Its better for their health and their wallet. Yes they tend to be a bit less educated and socialised, but they were like that when they drove scooters as well. Banning fat bikes is gesture politics.
      - lifestyleguru 5mo ago
        They drive fatbikes instead of road scooters, of the 25kmh limit ones eligible for cycling lanes?
    - 4gotunameagain 5mo ago
      There is zero phobia involved, just facts. I imagine you count second generation immigrants as Dutch assholes ? And don't get me wrong, I am not a huge fan of Dutch people. But I am even less of a fan of macho Moroccan kids.
jmorenoamor 5mo ago
The boundary between a bicycle and a motorbike has completely dissapeared. That boundary needs to be recovered, and then rules will make sense again, until then, any effort is futile.
- lifestyleguru 5mo ago
  I think it's pretty clear what is a bicycle. Bicycles don't have engines.
  - krater23 5mo ago
    Do you? At least the german law not. Looks like the law in the nederlands too.
    - lifestyleguru 5mo ago
      German law is created for litigation not for clarification.
      - krater23 5mo ago
        You talk about the civil law.
- ErroneousBosh 5mo ago
  > The boundary between a bicycle and a motorbike has completely dissapeared. Not really. The first motorbikes were bicycles with engines attached. Many current electric motorcycles are bicycles with electric motors attached. If it has a throttle and does not require pedal assist, it is a motorcycle.
  - david-gpu 5mo ago
    A pedal-assist e-bike with a 500 Watt motor and an easily bypassed speed governor looks like a bicycle, it is pedaled like a bicycle, and yet it is unsuitable for a bicycle lane or a path shared with pedestrians.
lifestyleguru 5mo ago
Cycling culture and infrastructure in Dutch cities is unique. Shame that it's wrecked by assholes who want something bigger and faster, or drive outright electric motorbikes.
pvtmert 5mo ago
They need a distinction between pedal assist and fully electric (motor) bike. I live in Luxembourg and the infrastructure is not as good as the Netherlands. Majority of offenders (in my experience) are delivery guys and teenagers. Where teenagers simply don't care & do reckless things like passing on a big intersection at full speed on a red light, delivery guys do the same things for extra tips. Some of the fat-tire electric bikes are really fast, I happen to chase them on Kirchberg cycle road. I sustained 40km/h average behind delivery guys and they were still faster, eventually dropping me. (I was on a road bike). Simply put, anything above 250watts does not belong to cycle lane.Includes humans :j
- junglistguy 5mo ago
  [dead]
- graemep 5mo ago
  Teenagers do dangerous things on normal bicycles too. The nearest I have ever come to an accident with a bicycle while driving (in the UK) was a teenager shooting out at high speed across the road from behind a parked van. Having cyclists sharing space with pedestrians is made worse by ebikes (which are effectively mopeds or motorbikes) but is a real problem with pedal bikes too in some places.
- JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
  > need a distinction between pedal assist and fully electric (motor) bike The only meaningful difference is if there is a motor or not. If there is a motor, it gets a speedometer and you have to stop at stop signs and red lights and follow speed limits. If you are powering yourself, it’s a bit more understandable that you don’t want to stop and start at every intersection. (Though if you have a racing bike, I’d reattach the speedometer and speed-limit requirements.)
  - davkan 5mo ago
    There’s no meaningful distinction between a race bike and a commuter bike that can be used for the purposes of lawmaking.
krater23 5mo ago
I life on a big street intersection with traffic lights in a city. Every year I can observe at least one cyclist crash with a car. Mostly because they just ignore the traffic lights completely. As cyclist you learn that traffic rules are not for you, because when you ignore them, normally nothing happens. When you want to safe lives, you need to register bikes and punish cyclists that ignore traffic rules. Otherwise the physics will do it, with much harder punishment.
seper8 5mo ago
They should just limit electric bikes to 15km/h. If you want to go faster, pedal yourself. This solves two problems: - Cool kids aren't cool anymore, biking on their now slow ass fatbikes - Old people who's mental faculties can't keep up with 25km/h anymore dont end up in so many traffic accidents.
- cuvert 5mo ago
  [dead]
- cinntaile 5mo ago
  Your suggestion would completely kill e-bikes, I don't think that is a good idea. Above a certain speed limit they should need to ride on the regular road though. On a regular e-bike you don't get up to 25km/h without putting in the effort. If their mental capacities are that far gone, they won't be able to go that fast anyway. They'll top out at 20km/h or something.
boesboes 5mo ago
[flagged]
rXwubXUGAm 5mo ago
Not necessarily against the idea but 20kph is very slow. It would be super easy to accidentally go over the limit unless you have a cycling computer attached to the bike and constantly monitor your speed.
- swarnie 5mo ago
  The exact same argument can be made for cars. Doesn't stop the government wasting half my Saturday and stealing £100 every couple of years. We should congratulate cyclist on becoming fully fledged (oppressed) road users.
  - david-gpu 5mo ago
    Drivers kill and severely injure people at rates higher than all other violent crime combined. https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240086517?hl=en-US#:~:text=Global%20status%20report%20on%20road%20safety%202023,-Global%20status%20report https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240086517?hl=en-...
  - Macha 5mo ago
    Cars are heavier, have longer stopping distances, poorer visibility and have speed measuring equipment installed. 20kph is not a difficult speed for an adult on a push bike on a flat surface, so we’re not just talking about ebikes where a mandatory speedometer could make sense
  - ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
    The issue should really be about kinetic energy and the likelihood of collisions. With cycles (including e-bikes), the rider is exposed and is likely to get hurt during a collision and this provides a feedback loop so that experienced riders are likely to take care and be very attentive. Cars don't have this feedback loop and are also orders of magnitude heavier, so it's really a different situation. It's bizarre to require a slower speed limit for a much lighter vehicle, when logic dictates that cars should have the much slower speed limit. > We should congratulate cyclist on becoming fully fledged (oppressed) road users. As a matter of record, the first modern roads were built specifically for and by cyclists: https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle/roads-built-cars https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle/roads-built-cars
expedition32 5mo ago
In most countries people use bicycles as some form of leisure travel but Dutch cycling is a need for speed! Tourist tip if you are ever in Amsterdam: check the ferry next to the train station during rush hour. It is the equivalent of Shibuya crossing only for cyclists. Pure madness but somehow it all works like clockwork.
LargoLasskhyfv 5mo ago
Deceleration for the nation! The question is, would I be allowed to use the road instead, if I go anywhere between 45kph to 60kph, as I tend to do on road-/gravelbikes on flat grounds, without too much head wind? Thinking about it I even do 45kph with an old 3-speed rear hub and coaster brake, mudguards, dynamo, porter, basket, from 1985 when in Hamburg. This makes no sense for me. Maybe don't declare bike lanes as such, if they are unfit for the purpose?
hyperman1 5mo ago
Belgian view here. Flanders is slowly getting the Dutch cycling culture. E-bikes are forbidden from assisting above 25 km/h. You can go faster, but you will be providing the power yourself. Something changed on the biking paths when e-bikes became the norm. Average speed went from 15 km/h to 25 km/h. This, combined with the heavyer weight of these bikes, created new dangers. A big ebike bike hitting a pedestrian routinely throws the pedestrian in the hospital and with life long damage. The fat bikes, some esteps and the food delivery people are worse. They tend to drive asocial, and are commonly illegally modified for higher speeds. The law is behind, and stupid politicians make it worse by stopping the police checking the bikes. Meanwhile, bike paths are a lot busier, and if near pedestrians, things are getting dangerous by default. I've decided for myself to limit my speed to 20 km/h in the city centers or at schools, and commonly go even lower. 25 is only for the ebike 'highways' next to secondary roads. I am pro stricter regulation and follow-up for my ebike. Belgium famously only implemented laws against drunk driving after an idiot killed a whole class at once. Let's not wait for an ebike equivalent. Better to do this calmly and thoughtfully now.
- lifestyleguru 5mo ago
  Yes electric vehicles completely changed the dynamics on bike lanes and pedestrian sidewalks (they drive on sidewalks in many European cities!). The kinetic energy is order of magnitude larger. 10-15 years ago police was stopping me and telling to get off the bicycle while I was driving bicycle carefully 4-5kmh on a pedestrian sidewalk in some major European cities. Now we have >15kg vehicles manoeuvring at >20kmh between pedestrians. The more east and south of Europe, the worse it is.
tim333 5mo ago
12 mph is an odd speed to choose given legal e-bikes in Europe are limited to 15.5 mph for electrical assist. Might as well either make it 15.5 mph if the road is open or say something like 5 mph if it's a pedestrian zone. By the way with 5 mph you wouldn't enforce it accurately as there are no speedos or speed cameras for bikes but it makes it clear if you are going 15 mph you are breaking it. That's what the have for the shared walk in Regent's Park for example.

31 points by defrost 5mo ago

> “This is all about cyclists on motorised bicycles, so I should think you would do something about motorised cyclists. Make a rule for them and not for all cyclists.” There's a certain sub strain of cyclists that want absolutely no rules for them. In a just world, cyclists would have more freedom than cars, but pedestrians would have most of all. But walking through European cities with large cycling cultures can be dangerous, too, especially for children and the elderly. Too often, cyclists will completely ignore stop signs and stop lights, or go at full speed on the sidewalks. And because I know someone is going to retort that car drivers break traffic laws, too: drivers acting dangerously shouldn't excuse cyclists.

globular-toast 5mo ago
I don't like to think of it in terms of freedom. Everyone has the same freedom to use public highways. The difference is responsibility. If you decide to use a bicycle you have a bit more responsibility than if you walk because they can go faster. If you decide to use a motor vehicle then it should come with a huge amount of extra responsibility. Ultimately you have the added responsibility of ensuring the safety and freedoms of those more vulnerable road users. So it's not "less freedom", it's "greater responsibility".
- graemep 5mo ago
  The problem is that there are effective mechanisms for punishing irresponsible drivers (and motor cyclists), but none (at least here in the UK) for punishing irresponsible cyclists. The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians. I see cyclists on the pavement all the time (mostly illegally - and without consequences), I never see a car driving on the pavement (some park on the pavement, which is annoying).
  - apothegm 5mo ago
    > The other problem is that cyclists often share space with pedestrians The solution to this is better cycling infrastructure to separate them, not making cycling less useful by setting ridiculously low speed limits.
    - graemep 5mo ago
      Proper separate infrastructure (i.e. not just painting a dividing line on the pavement as happens around here) is expensive and requires a lot of space. It is not always practicable, and even where it is the money would often be better spend elsewhere - e.g. on public transport.
aix1 5mo ago
What that woman you quoted said definitely resonates with me. I cycle a lot and the rise of e-bikes has definitely made my experience worse. Those bikes are capable of inficting a lot more damage yet I find that the average skill level of e-bike riders tends to be lower than that of the general cycling population. IMO not a great combination.
- huhkerrf 5mo ago
  Sure, but just like with cars, e-bikes being more dangerous doesn't mean cyclists also don't need to have rules to follow.

aix1 5mo ago

I find it mind blowing that ~42% of all cycling deaths are men aged 70+. It obviously confounds fragility with participation but, still, it must mean that people continue to use bikes -- I'm guessing increasingly e-bikes -- well into their old age. (42% is 118/281 in the report.)

fjfaase 5mo ago
I think that if you as 60+ person cannot bike without support your brain is probably also not fit enough anymore for the speed you are going to ride at. So, I advice older people not to use an e-bike. I am not going to use one. Maybe a trike is a safe option at speeds not exceeding 10km/h.
rcxdude 5mo ago
I wonder how many of those are just heart attacks triggered by the exertion. A member of my family died that way (though they were not that old, and were relatively fit)
- warmedcookie 5mo ago
  Another N=1 here, a family friend in their late 60s died of a heart attack while biking.

paddim8 5mo ago

20 km/h is nothing. On a bike lane you should be allowed to go normal biking speed

raphman 5mo ago
As the article says: this is not a general speed limit but an experimental speed limit for an apparently very crowded area where many kids cycle to school. As someone whose 'normal biking speed' ist typically 30+ km/h on suitable bike lanes, I have no problems with speed limits at critical choke points.
- apothegm 5mo ago
  Ah, this bit of crucial context seems to be missing from the entire rest of the discussion. Also makes what otherwise sounds like an uncharacteristically bike-hostile move actually seem fairly reasonable. Tho tbf one still hopes that they come up with an infrastructure solution that makes it unnecessary in the long run.
  - raphman 5mo ago
    I'm not sure whether the Guardian article mentioned this or another one I read: the road segment in question seems to be in the old town which makes it difficult to find an architectural solution.
fjfaase 5mo ago
In the Netherlands we do not bike for sport but for daily commutes and shopping. Most people on non e-bikes go at about 15km/h.

globular-toast 5mo ago

12mph seems very slow, but I suppose you can still cycle in the carriageway if you're a decent cyclist? Really we need to ban motorised vehicles that go above 12mph. They are not bicycles and should not be in cycleways. I feel there is a big difference between someone who is able to pedal at higher speeds and someone who is just using a motor vehicle.

ricardobeat 5mo ago
Cycling on the road is only allowed where there are no bike lanes, which is very rare.
- globular-toast 5mo ago
  That's insane then. 12mph is barely faster than running speed. The world record marathon speed is faster than that!

orbital-decay 5mo ago

>Amsterdam and Enschede are banning wide-tyre fat bikes from some central locations or parks What's the reason? Ordinary fatbikes aren't fast, and e-bikes are fast in any case.

4gotunameagain 5mo ago
The reason is that the fat bikes are widely popular with young delinquents, typically of the immigrant kind. They have the absolute worst reputation around Amsterdam.
- reacharavindh 5mo ago
  You could’ve said what you said except the “immigrant kind” bit. I see enough Dutch assholes on fat bikes just as well. No need to be xenophobic here.
  - junglistguy 5mo ago
    [dead]
  - pineaux 5mo ago
    Nah, its almost for sure xenophobic and classist. I think fat bikes are the best thing that happened to amsterdam because all the scooters disappeared. All the poor people that used to ride scooters are now riding fat bikes. Its better for their health and their wallet. Yes they tend to be a bit less educated and socialised, but they were like that when they drove scooters as well. Banning fat bikes is gesture politics.
    - lifestyleguru 5mo ago
      They drive fatbikes instead of road scooters, of the 25kmh limit ones eligible for cycling lanes?
  - 4gotunameagain 5mo ago
    There is zero phobia involved, just facts. I imagine you count second generation immigrants as Dutch assholes ? And don't get me wrong, I am not a huge fan of Dutch people. But I am even less of a fan of macho Moroccan kids.

jmorenoamor 5mo ago

The boundary between a bicycle and a motorbike has completely dissapeared. That boundary needs to be recovered, and then rules will make sense again, until then, any effort is futile.

lifestyleguru 5mo ago
I think it's pretty clear what is a bicycle. Bicycles don't have engines.
- krater23 5mo ago
  Do you? At least the german law not. Looks like the law in the nederlands too.
  - lifestyleguru 5mo ago
    German law is created for litigation not for clarification.
    - krater23 5mo ago
      You talk about the civil law.
ErroneousBosh 5mo ago
> The boundary between a bicycle and a motorbike has completely dissapeared. Not really. The first motorbikes were bicycles with engines attached. Many current electric motorcycles are bicycles with electric motors attached. If it has a throttle and does not require pedal assist, it is a motorcycle.
- david-gpu 5mo ago
  A pedal-assist e-bike with a 500 Watt motor and an easily bypassed speed governor looks like a bicycle, it is pedaled like a bicycle, and yet it is unsuitable for a bicycle lane or a path shared with pedestrians.

lifestyleguru 5mo ago

Cycling culture and infrastructure in Dutch cities is unique. Shame that it's wrecked by assholes who want something bigger and faster, or drive outright electric motorbikes.

pvtmert 5mo ago

They need a distinction between pedal assist and fully electric (motor) bike. I live in Luxembourg and the infrastructure is not as good as the Netherlands. Majority of offenders (in my experience) are delivery guys and teenagers. Where teenagers simply don't care & do reckless things like passing on a big intersection at full speed on a red light, delivery guys do the same things for extra tips. Some of the fat-tire electric bikes are really fast, I happen to chase them on Kirchberg cycle road. I sustained 40km/h average behind delivery guys and they were still faster, eventually dropping me. (I was on a road bike). Simply put, anything above 250watts does not belong to cycle lane.Includes humans :j

junglistguy 5mo ago
[dead]
graemep 5mo ago
Teenagers do dangerous things on normal bicycles too. The nearest I have ever come to an accident with a bicycle while driving (in the UK) was a teenager shooting out at high speed across the road from behind a parked van. Having cyclists sharing space with pedestrians is made worse by ebikes (which are effectively mopeds or motorbikes) but is a real problem with pedal bikes too in some places.
JumpCrisscross 5mo ago
> need a distinction between pedal assist and fully electric (motor) bike The only meaningful difference is if there is a motor or not. If there is a motor, it gets a speedometer and you have to stop at stop signs and red lights and follow speed limits. If you are powering yourself, it’s a bit more understandable that you don’t want to stop and start at every intersection. (Though if you have a racing bike, I’d reattach the speedometer and speed-limit requirements.)
- davkan 5mo ago
  There’s no meaningful distinction between a race bike and a commuter bike that can be used for the purposes of lawmaking.

krater23 5mo ago

I life on a big street intersection with traffic lights in a city. Every year I can observe at least one cyclist crash with a car. Mostly because they just ignore the traffic lights completely. As cyclist you learn that traffic rules are not for you, because when you ignore them, normally nothing happens. When you want to safe lives, you need to register bikes and punish cyclists that ignore traffic rules. Otherwise the physics will do it, with much harder punishment.

seper8 5mo ago

They should just limit electric bikes to 15km/h. If you want to go faster, pedal yourself. This solves two problems: - Cool kids aren't cool anymore, biking on their now slow ass fatbikes - Old people who's mental faculties can't keep up with 25km/h anymore dont end up in so many traffic accidents.

cuvert 5mo ago
[dead]
cinntaile 5mo ago
Your suggestion would completely kill e-bikes, I don't think that is a good idea. Above a certain speed limit they should need to ride on the regular road though. On a regular e-bike you don't get up to 25km/h without putting in the effort. If their mental capacities are that far gone, they won't be able to go that fast anyway. They'll top out at 20km/h or something.

boesboes 5mo ago

[flagged]

rXwubXUGAm 5mo ago

Not necessarily against the idea but 20kph is very slow. It would be super easy to accidentally go over the limit unless you have a cycling computer attached to the bike and constantly monitor your speed.

swarnie 5mo ago
The exact same argument can be made for cars. Doesn't stop the government wasting half my Saturday and stealing £100 every couple of years. We should congratulate cyclist on becoming fully fledged (oppressed) road users.
- david-gpu 5mo ago
  Drivers kill and severely injure people at rates higher than all other violent crime combined. https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240086517?hl=en-US#:~:text=Global%20status%20report%20on%20road%20safety%202023,-Global%20status%20report https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240086517?hl=en-...
- Macha 5mo ago
  Cars are heavier, have longer stopping distances, poorer visibility and have speed measuring equipment installed. 20kph is not a difficult speed for an adult on a push bike on a flat surface, so we’re not just talking about ebikes where a mandatory speedometer could make sense
- ndsipa_pomu 5mo ago
  The issue should really be about kinetic energy and the likelihood of collisions. With cycles (including e-bikes), the rider is exposed and is likely to get hurt during a collision and this provides a feedback loop so that experienced riders are likely to take care and be very attentive. Cars don't have this feedback loop and are also orders of magnitude heavier, so it's really a different situation. It's bizarre to require a slower speed limit for a much lighter vehicle, when logic dictates that cars should have the much slower speed limit. > We should congratulate cyclist on becoming fully fledged (oppressed) road users. As a matter of record, the first modern roads were built specifically for and by cyclists: https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle/roads-built-cars https://www.cyclinguk.org/cycle/roads-built-cars

expedition32 5mo ago

In most countries people use bicycles as some form of leisure travel but Dutch cycling is a need for speed! Tourist tip if you are ever in Amsterdam: check the ferry next to the train station during rush hour. It is the equivalent of Shibuya crossing only for cyclists. Pure madness but somehow it all works like clockwork.

LargoLasskhyfv 5mo ago

Deceleration for the nation! The question is, would I be allowed to use the road instead, if I go anywhere between 45kph to 60kph, as I tend to do on road-/gravelbikes on flat grounds, without too much head wind? Thinking about it I even do 45kph with an old 3-speed rear hub and coaster brake, mudguards, dynamo, porter, basket, from 1985 when in Hamburg. This makes no sense for me. Maybe don't declare bike lanes as such, if they are unfit for the purpose?

hyperman1 5mo ago

Belgian view here. Flanders is slowly getting the Dutch cycling culture. E-bikes are forbidden from assisting above 25 km/h. You can go faster, but you will be providing the power yourself. Something changed on the biking paths when e-bikes became the norm. Average speed went from 15 km/h to 25 km/h. This, combined with the heavyer weight of these bikes, created new dangers. A big ebike bike hitting a pedestrian routinely throws the pedestrian in the hospital and with life long damage. The fat bikes, some esteps and the food delivery people are worse. They tend to drive asocial, and are commonly illegally modified for higher speeds. The law is behind, and stupid politicians make it worse by stopping the police checking the bikes. Meanwhile, bike paths are a lot busier, and if near pedestrians, things are getting dangerous by default. I've decided for myself to limit my speed to 20 km/h in the city centers or at schools, and commonly go even lower. 25 is only for the ebike 'highways' next to secondary roads. I am pro stricter regulation and follow-up for my ebike. Belgium famously only implemented laws against drunk driving after an idiot killed a whole class at once. Let's not wait for an ebike equivalent. Better to do this calmly and thoughtfully now.

lifestyleguru 5mo ago
Yes electric vehicles completely changed the dynamics on bike lanes and pedestrian sidewalks (they drive on sidewalks in many European cities!). The kinetic energy is order of magnitude larger. 10-15 years ago police was stopping me and telling to get off the bicycle while I was driving bicycle carefully 4-5kmh on a pedestrian sidewalk in some major European cities. Now we have >15kg vehicles manoeuvring at >20kmh between pedestrians. The more east and south of Europe, the worse it is.

tim333 5mo ago

12 mph is an odd speed to choose given legal e-bikes in Europe are limited to 15.5 mph for electrical assist. Might as well either make it 15.5 mph if the road is open or say something like 5 mph if it's a pedestrian zone. By the way with 5 mph you wouldn't enforce it accurately as there are no speedos or speed cameras for bikes but it makes it clear if you are going 15 mph you are breaking it. That's what the have for the shared walk in Regent's Park for example.