5 ms·

Coming from a certain european country, you never know what answer on the census might get you into trouble. "What is your religious affiliation". Seems perfec

Coming from a certain european country, you never know what answer on the census might get you into trouble. "What is your religious affiliation". Seems perfectly innocuous, but turned out to be retroactively fatal if your answer could be attributed to you by a certain foreign occupier in the 1940s .

Rygian 4mo ago
"What is your religious affiliation" makes absolutely no sense in a census exercise. IMO.
- yoyohello13 4mo ago
  Unless you’re a government explicitly and openly aligned with Christian nationalists.
- twoodfin 4mo ago
  The U.S. Census Bureau collects tons of data unrelated to the decennial counting for Congressional apportionment. https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys.html The American Community Survey is the most well-known, as it replaced the “long form” sampling that had been an extension to the Census.
- mschuster91 4mo ago
  It actually does. Religious affinity can absolutely be useful for longer trend studies, and census data is usually of much, much higher quality than other random sample studies.
  - Rygian 4mo ago
    With that perspective, how do you prevent scope creep when preparing a census exercise? You would collect everything and the shape of each house's kitchen sink, because "it can be useful".
    - mschuster91 4mo ago
      Generally, by looking at what other nations do, what academia asks of us, and what studies are being undertaken by academia.
- talon8635 4mo ago
  The point might be going over my head… why does it make no sense?
  - iririririr 4mo ago
    why it makes sense? please try to answer. what action of the gov would change based on that data? then, make it so your answer is more valid than if they asked what you usually have for breakfast. i guarantee you more gov actions can be positively impacted by the breakfast question than the religion one. the ONLY use for religious data is to get it for free for campaigns.
    - talon8635 4mo ago
      Isn’t religion, for those who follow it (I don’t), one of if not the most important aspects of their identity and life’s purpose? I love breakfast food, but not that much. Don’t some religions not get along very well? Given your criteria, what should be asked? Check the boxes for the physical and mental illnesses you have? What’s your BMI? How much time do you spend online? What percent of your diet is highly processed foods? Is gender/sex also nonsensical? Is languages spoken also nonsensical?
      - adastra22 4mo ago
        They are asking what policy decisions hinge on that religion question. Given 1st amendment protections against government policy that favors one religion over another, I think that’s a fair question to ask.
        talon8635 4mo ago
        Don’t some countries in EU have face covering bans that have to take religious practices into consideration? Isn’t (non) taxation of religious institutions an ongoing debate? Wouldn’t knowing religious census data aid in exploring that? Those are two things that’s popped into my head immediately. If I thought about it for an extended period of time, especially if I knew more about governed t and law, I’m sure there would be other avenues of consideration.
Bratmon 4mo ago
Surely any such foreign occupier would just demand the unredacted data?
- gambiting 4mo ago
  Yes, which is why the government shouldn't have this data at all in the first place.
  - monitorlizard 4mo ago
    Say you get your way, and, for fear of Mark Carney rolling the tanks in and taking over North America, the US stops collecting any data on its citizens. How is the IRS supposed to know how much tax to expect from you? How is SNAP supposed to determine your eligibility? How is unemployment supposed to know if you're ripping them off or not? Data privacy is a real concern, but you need PII to run government services effectively. Running a state without collecting PII is like running a hospital without collecting any.
    - AlecSchueler 4mo ago
      > How is the IRS supposed to know how much tax to expect from you? How is SNAP supposed to determine your eligibility? How is unemployment supposed to know if you're ripping them off or not? How does knowing your religious affiliation help them with any of this?
      - LoganDark 4mo ago
        "Collecting data" is what helps them.
    - dwaltrip 4mo ago
      They should follow the principle of least privilege. Why not use differential privacy?
    - gambiting 4mo ago
      I don't know why you understood my comment as saying government shouldn't have any data. I specifically replied to the comment about religion - there's no reason for the government to collect any data about that from individuals. Churches can report how many members they have if they want to. But it shouldn't be a question on the census.
WillPostForFood 4mo ago
Asking about your religion on the census is against the law in the US: no person shall be compelled to disclose information relative to his religious beliefs or to membership in a religious body. https://www.congress.gov/94/statute/STATUTE-90/STATUTE-90-Pg2459.pdf https://www.congress.gov/94/statute/STATUTE-90/STATUTE-90-Pg...
- swsieber 4mo ago
  > compelled Doesn't that mean they can ask that question with an option for "rather not disclose"?
  - asdff 4mo ago
    You can look at the sample form for 2020 census and you will find it is not on there.
- petilon 4mo ago
  Religion is just an example. Don't dwell on it.
well_ackshually 4mo ago
France used to make plenty of lists. We loved lists. Lists are good. Jews lists? Sure, it's maybe useful one day when we want to do something. Boy were the Germans happy to find these. The American obsession with asking for people their perceived origins (AAPI, AA, Latino, ...) is more than weird: it's downright dangerous. Don't fucking ask these questions, and never, ever write it down, especially not with names. Thankfully, now they can just buy it from data brokers and let Palantir target, so that makes life easier for them
- whimsicalism 4mo ago
  France knows very little about managing a post-colonial multiracial society (except for terribly), I would appreciate if y'all listened and learned or at least approached the issue with more humility. France has serious racial, colonial, Muslim, immigrant, and banlieue inequalities, but its refusal to officially measure race/ethnicity makes those inequalities harder to see, litigate, quantify, or remedy.
  - well_ackshually 4mo ago
    Considering the last time we made lists of people's origins, it was used by the nazis and that there's a chance for the neonazis in 2027: no, thank you. Knowing someone is algerian, muslim or black doesn't help you fix inequalities. It doesn't help in the US, or anywhere else in the world. Racial statistics are useless. We know where poverty is.
deleted 4mo ago
[deleted]
asdff 4mo ago
They don't ask about religious affiliation on the census. 1. How many people were living or staying in this house, apartment, or mobile home on April 1, 2020? 2. Were there any additional people staying here on April 1, 2020 that you did not include in Question 1? 3. Is this house, apartment, or mobile home? 4. What is your telephone number? 5. What is Person 1’s name? 6. What is Person 1’s sex? 7. What is Person 1’s age and what is Person 1’s date of birth? 8. Is Person 1 of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin? 9. What is Person 1’s race? Nothing really stops you from lying either.
- kmacdough 4mo ago
  Right, but the entire damn point is privacy protections enable people to be more honest. The entire point is supposed to be good data so we can make informed population wide decisions. And race is a pretty big one under the current administration which has had hundreds of legal immigrants arrested for weeks to months off of "suspicion" that for lack of concrete evidence could only amount to racial profiling.
  - asdff 4mo ago
    Administration doesn't care about race, but conservative in groups and liberal out groups. Race is a sort of proxy drumbbeat to appease the most stupid of their base. This is why people like Marco Rubio or Scott Turner are part of the in group despite the seeming cognitive dissonance there. There are a shocking number of black and latino people in this country who do in fact support this regime. There are gay republicans. Muslim republicans. All of this is tolerated by the in group if they are ideologically conservative. You know how you target best based on ideology? Not the damn census. Social media. What you post, who you follow, all of that stuff we forgot that ICE was getting from travelers at the border imaging their cellphone. That stuff is far more accurate to what you are today, right now, at this minute, and where you fall in light of this regime, and what risk you present to the state and its power structures.

Rygian 4mo ago

"What is your religious affiliation" makes absolutely no sense in a census exercise. IMO.

yoyohello13 4mo ago
Unless you’re a government explicitly and openly aligned with Christian nationalists.
twoodfin 4mo ago
The U.S. Census Bureau collects tons of data unrelated to the decennial counting for Congressional apportionment. https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys.html https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys.html The American Community Survey is the most well-known, as it replaced the “long form” sampling that had been an extension to the Census.
mschuster91 4mo ago
It actually does. Religious affinity can absolutely be useful for longer trend studies, and census data is usually of much, much higher quality than other random sample studies.
- Rygian 4mo ago
  With that perspective, how do you prevent scope creep when preparing a census exercise? You would collect everything and the shape of each house's kitchen sink, because "it can be useful".
  - mschuster91 4mo ago
    Generally, by looking at what other nations do, what academia asks of us, and what studies are being undertaken by academia.
talon8635 4mo ago
The point might be going over my head… why does it make no sense?
- iririririr 4mo ago
  why it makes sense? please try to answer. what action of the gov would change based on that data? then, make it so your answer is more valid than if they asked what you usually have for breakfast. i guarantee you more gov actions can be positively impacted by the breakfast question than the religion one. the ONLY use for religious data is to get it for free for campaigns.
  - talon8635 4mo ago
    Isn’t religion, for those who follow it (I don’t), one of if not the most important aspects of their identity and life’s purpose? I love breakfast food, but not that much. Don’t some religions not get along very well? Given your criteria, what should be asked? Check the boxes for the physical and mental illnesses you have? What’s your BMI? How much time do you spend online? What percent of your diet is highly processed foods? Is gender/sex also nonsensical? Is languages spoken also nonsensical?
    - adastra22 4mo ago
      They are asking what policy decisions hinge on that religion question. Given 1st amendment protections against government policy that favors one religion over another, I think that’s a fair question to ask.
      - talon8635 4mo ago
        Don’t some countries in EU have face covering bans that have to take religious practices into consideration? Isn’t (non) taxation of religious institutions an ongoing debate? Wouldn’t knowing religious census data aid in exploring that? Those are two things that’s popped into my head immediately. If I thought about it for an extended period of time, especially if I knew more about governed t and law, I’m sure there would be other avenues of consideration.

Bratmon 4mo ago

Surely any such foreign occupier would just demand the unredacted data?

gambiting 4mo ago
Yes, which is why the government shouldn't have this data at all in the first place.
- monitorlizard 4mo ago
  Say you get your way, and, for fear of Mark Carney rolling the tanks in and taking over North America, the US stops collecting any data on its citizens. How is the IRS supposed to know how much tax to expect from you? How is SNAP supposed to determine your eligibility? How is unemployment supposed to know if you're ripping them off or not? Data privacy is a real concern, but you need PII to run government services effectively. Running a state without collecting PII is like running a hospital without collecting any.
  - AlecSchueler 4mo ago
    > How is the IRS supposed to know how much tax to expect from you? How is SNAP supposed to determine your eligibility? How is unemployment supposed to know if you're ripping them off or not? How does knowing your religious affiliation help them with any of this?
    - LoganDark 4mo ago
      "Collecting data" is what helps them.
  - dwaltrip 4mo ago
    They should follow the principle of least privilege. Why not use differential privacy?
  - gambiting 4mo ago
    I don't know why you understood my comment as saying government shouldn't have any data. I specifically replied to the comment about religion - there's no reason for the government to collect any data about that from individuals. Churches can report how many members they have if they want to. But it shouldn't be a question on the census.

WillPostForFood 4mo ago

Asking about your religion on the census is against the law in the US: no person shall be compelled to disclose information relative to his religious beliefs or to membership in a religious body. https://www.congress.gov/94/statute/STATUTE-90/STATUTE-90-Pg2459.pdf https://www.congress.gov/94/statute/STATUTE-90/STATUTE-90-Pg...

swsieber 4mo ago
> compelled Doesn't that mean they can ask that question with an option for "rather not disclose"?
- asdff 4mo ago
  You can look at the sample form for 2020 census and you will find it is not on there.
petilon 4mo ago
Religion is just an example. Don't dwell on it.

well_ackshually 4mo ago

France used to make plenty of lists. We loved lists. Lists are good. Jews lists? Sure, it's maybe useful one day when we want to do something. Boy were the Germans happy to find these. The American obsession with asking for people their perceived origins (AAPI, AA, Latino, ...) is more than weird: it's downright dangerous. Don't fucking ask these questions, and never, ever write it down, especially not with names. Thankfully, now they can just buy it from data brokers and let Palantir target, so that makes life easier for them

whimsicalism 4mo ago
France knows very little about managing a post-colonial multiracial society (except for terribly), I would appreciate if y'all listened and learned or at least approached the issue with more humility. France has serious racial, colonial, Muslim, immigrant, and banlieue inequalities, but its refusal to officially measure race/ethnicity makes those inequalities harder to see, litigate, quantify, or remedy.
- well_ackshually 4mo ago
  Considering the last time we made lists of people's origins, it was used by the nazis and that there's a chance for the neonazis in 2027: no, thank you. Knowing someone is algerian, muslim or black doesn't help you fix inequalities. It doesn't help in the US, or anywhere else in the world. Racial statistics are useless. We know where poverty is.

deleted 4mo ago

[deleted]

asdff 4mo ago

They don't ask about religious affiliation on the census. 1. How many people were living or staying in this house, apartment, or mobile home on April 1, 2020? 2. Were there any additional people staying here on April 1, 2020 that you did not include in Question 1? 3. Is this house, apartment, or mobile home? 4. What is your telephone number? 5. What is Person 1’s name? 6. What is Person 1’s sex? 7. What is Person 1’s age and what is Person 1’s date of birth? 8. Is Person 1 of Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish origin? 9. What is Person 1’s race? Nothing really stops you from lying either.

kmacdough 4mo ago
Right, but the entire damn point is privacy protections enable people to be more honest. The entire point is supposed to be good data so we can make informed population wide decisions. And race is a pretty big one under the current administration which has had hundreds of legal immigrants arrested for weeks to months off of "suspicion" that for lack of concrete evidence could only amount to racial profiling.
- asdff 4mo ago
  Administration doesn't care about race, but conservative in groups and liberal out groups. Race is a sort of proxy drumbbeat to appease the most stupid of their base. This is why people like Marco Rubio or Scott Turner are part of the in group despite the seeming cognitive dissonance there. There are a shocking number of black and latino people in this country who do in fact support this regime. There are gay republicans. Muslim republicans. All of this is tolerated by the in group if they are ideologically conservative. You know how you target best based on ideology? Not the damn census. Social media. What you post, who you follow, all of that stuff we forgot that ICE was getting from travelers at the border imaging their cellphone. That stuff is far more accurate to what you are today, right now, at this minute, and where you fall in light of this regime, and what risk you present to the state and its power structures.